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It's a stupid picture, why don't you Christians have a pornographic picture of two men together to convince us being gay is evil.
That would be way more disgusting than Jeff's avatar.
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Originally Posted by Freethinker93
But we aren't talking about a cup. The color of an object is not subject to objection. It is finite and irrefutable. The same cannot be said for abortion as there is always debate on the subject. Your opinion is that it is alive, as is many others. But the opinion of your opposition is that it is not. You can see it as a clear cut case of black and white, murderers and pro-life, but thankfully I'm not that ignorant or shortsighted.
Either it's alive or it isn't. Opinion to the contrary will not change that fact.
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Originally Posted by alwight
It is dogmatic to simply claim that all abortion is wrong or murder when plainly depending on the individual circumstances, and also from a human pov, there is often much more to it.
Do you have any examples of when it is not wrong or murder?
It's desensitizing. Whatever. Nothing anyone says about will make any difference. Except maybe to have folks who approve of it dig their heels in more.
"There was so much handwriting on the wall that even the wall fell down"
"In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only sure weapon against bad ideas is better ideas. The source of better ideas is wisdom. The surest path to wisdom is a liberal education." – Alfred Whitney, Essays on Education
Don't you know
That it ain't a crime
If all the squares
And the junkmen
Think you're out of line
Abortion is a particular kind of murder, so, "No".
OK so as far as you're concerned there can be no mitigating circumstances at all, never, it's simply murder. Be it severe congenital dysfunction or that the medical prognosis for the woman is likely to be death. For you then whatever the situation abortion is dogmatically always murder.
However as far as I'm concerned there are many circumstances such as rape, and the above, when I'd support abortion. At least then the woman could possibly have a child by someone she loved and a child too that would in turn be wanted and loved, not rejected. This you would seem to deny her in order to cling to your dogmatic belief that abortion can never be justified.
I think that is heartless, cruel and plain wrong btw. Fortunately doctors and others are rather less dogmatic than you are.
It is dogmatic to simply claim that all abortion is wrong or murder when plainly depending on the individual circumstances, and also from a human pov, there is often much more to it.
Do you have any examples of when it is not wrong or murder?
Yes, I can personally think of several instances that, with hindsight perhaps, abortion would have been very justified indeed.
OK so as far as you're concerned there can be no mitigating circumstances at all, never, it's simply murder. Be it severe congenital dysfunction or that the medical prognosis for the woman is likely to be death. For you then whatever the situation abortion is dogmatically always murder.
Correct. There is never a reason to stop delivering a child, whatever her problems, and kill her.
If you have a medical crisis it might be necessary to deliver the child, but it is never necessary to intentionally kill her.
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However as far as I'm concerned there are many circumstances such as rape, and the above, when I'd support abortion.
Why? Why would you want to kill a person because her father was a rapist?
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At least then the woman could possibly have a child by someone she loved and a child too that would in turn be wanted and loved, not rejected.
So you think it's OK to murder people who might be rejected?
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This you would seem to deny her in order to cling to your dogmatic belief that abortion can never be justified.
Yeah, dude, in order to deny a person the ability to murder her child one is forced to deny that person the right to murder her child.
You gotta think before you start typing.
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I think that is heartless, cruel and plain wrong btw.
To not allow people to murder? Why?
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Fortunately doctors and others are rather less dogmatic than you are.
You have a lot of people on your side who are not dogmatic that murder is wrong.
You have a lot of people on your side who are not dogmatic that murder is wrong.
I realise probably nothing I could ever say would be likely to change anything about the way you think of abortion Stripe.
But afaic honest, rational and well intended motives, even if they were in the end wrong or misguided is never murder.
Claiming all abortion is murder is simply emotive nonsense, a bit like Jefferson's avatar.
I realise probably nothing I could ever say would be likely to change anything about the way you think of abortion Stripe. But afaic honest, rational and well intended motives, even if they were in the end wrong or misguided is never murder. Claiming all abortion is murder is simply emotive nonsense, a bit like Jefferson's avatar.
I notice you have no reasoned responses to relevant questions.
You say a rapist's child can be killed. Why do you think it's OK that a rapist's child can be murdered?
I notice you have no reasoned responses to relevant questions.
You say a rapist's child can be killed. Why do you think it's OK that a rapist's child can be murdered?
Since you asked so nicely.
Aborted, yes I do, so shoot me, I don't particularly like the idea much but while the foetus is still a small cluster of cells, and certainly nothing like Jefferson's avatar, I see nothing very wrong in that at all to consider the best long term interests of the woman.
Yes I do, so shoot me, I don't particularly like the idea much but while the foetus is still a small cluster of cells, and certainly nothing like Jefferson's avatar, I see nothing very wrong in that at all to consider the best long term interests of the woman.
So, size makes a big difference to you?
How does that work? Is there some sort of scale that determines how bad a murder is depending on the size of the child? Does this only pertain to rapist's children or are you now talking about all children? Is it OK to murder any child as long as she is small enough? At what size does intentionally killing a child become murder? Why do you hold this size as particularly relevant?
How does that work? Is there some sort of scale that determines how bad a murder is depending on the size of the child? Does this only pertain to rapist's children or are you now talking about all children? Is it OK to murder any child as long as she is small enough? At what size does intentionally killing a child become murder? Why do you hold this size as particularly relevant?
Sorry but I don't think of a small cluster of cells as a child.
I don't know about you, but if my wife had been raped, apart from everything else, there is absolutely no way that I for one would be going to feel particularly good about the developing foetus, let alone her going through all the pains of labour or then raising it, when it should have been mine. For her it gets even worse, the resulting child would be a constant reminder of rape, never to be forgotten.
Perhaps for you though it would be very different, even later when you knew that an early abortion could have perhaps prevented the break down of your marriage, as long as your dogmatic principals remained intact?
It's desensitizing. Whatever. Nothing anyone says about will make any difference. Except maybe to have folks who approve of it dig their heels in more.
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Reputation:
August 5th, 2010, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alwight
Yes.
Sorry but I don't think of a small cluster of cells as a child.
I don't know about you, but if my wife had been raped, apart from everything else, there is absolutely no way that I for one would be going to feel particularly good about the developing foetus, let alone her going through all the pains of labour or then raising it, when it should have been mine. For her it gets even worse, the resulting child would be a constant reminder of rape, never to be forgotten.
Perhaps for you though it would be very different, even later when you knew that an early abortion could have perhaps prevented the break down of your marriage, as long as your dogmatic principals remained intact?
I am sorry about your wife's rape. No woman should ever be the victim of such violence.
In regards to abortion for reasons of rape, however, it still does not make any sense to punish the unborn baby for the actions of his/her father. IF it isn't within the mother's (or your capacity) to love that innocent child, there is the option of adoption.
I am sorry about your wife's rape. No woman should ever be the victim of such violence.
No you have misread me, it was hypothetical (If..), but the point still stands.
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Originally Posted by Rusha
In regards to abortion for reasons of rape, however, it still does not make any sense to punish the unborn baby for the actions of his/her father. IF it isn't within the mother's (or your capacity) to love that innocent child, there is the option of adoption.
Firstly I was talking about a small cluster of cells not as per Jefferson's avatar, I wasn't in any way advocating a near full term abortion for this case.
I see no reason for a (hypothetically) raped wife to have to go through a 9 month term in order to produce a rapist's child. She could have spent the same time in producing her husbands child that they would both hopefully have wanted and will love, a child that will not possibly ruin their lives.
I don't know what kind of life the rapist's child would have had but that isn't really the point afaic.
The most realistic caring and pragmatic course for this particular scenario for me at least is clear, that is to allow and yes even encourage the option to abort. If that goes against some people's sensibilities here then sorry but I see no reason to totally blight a married couple's lives any further by prolonging the pain for probably the rest of their lives.
To simply reject all abortion or call it murder in all cases is very wrong, because every case deserves to be honestly judged individually without dogmatic or religious prejudice.
But I do find it strange that some here want gays executed but a small cluster of cells is sacred, under no circumstances whatsoever must it be aborted. It doesn't seem to matter whatever the reasons or circumstances that exist, for dogmatic reasons alone abortion is for them always murder. They are hypocrites.
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