ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
I said
Can I ask you a question? How can anyone hold onto an understanding of something that uses terms like, "maybe" "Almost always" and "most of the time" "may mean either"???
I am a covenantalist, and a dispensationalist.
Slogan/motto:
'Let God be true and every man a liar'
Reputation:
December 8th, 2010, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Chrysostom: it is the only empire to last one thousand years
and
it was Christian
and
it fits
Chrysostom
Hi there,
Thank you for that. I can understand your thinking. The only thing is there is so much accumulative evidence which also needs to be in place isn't there, for it to fulfil the prophetic writings applicable to that time?
For this is the day when 'the Lord shall be king over all the earth' (Zech. 14:9); when 'the Lord of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously' (Isa. 24:23; 9:7). See also Jer. 3:17; 23:5. Micah 4:7. Ezek. 43:7.
Many scriptures tell of the glories of that 1,000 years. Briefly, those years will be characterised by,
1) the absence of Satan
2) the restoration of the earth (Ps.67:6) many physical marvels, converting its deserts into gardens, and causing its wildernesses to blossom as the rose;
3) changes in the sun, moon and stars, which shall affect the climates and fruitfulness of the earth.
4) changes in the nature and habits of the wild animals.
5) righteous government (Isa. 32:1; 29:18,19; 33:6).
6) life prolonged and health improved (Isa. 33:24; 65:20-23)
When the 1,000 years end, their blessedness does not end, but increases with the glory of the new heavens and the new earth (Rev. 21; 22).
With all this in mind I don't really see how the Byzantine empire can be anything other than a 'shadow', or 'type' maybe, but not it's fulfilment.
Slogan/motto:
'Let God be true and every man a liar'
Reputation:
December 8th, 2010, 01:07 PM
Quote:
HisServant: Dispensationalism is an 18th century invention by a couple of religious outcasts (one actually served time in jail for theft of his mother in laws inheritance).
It was also not taught by any of Jesus' disciples... so there can be no doubt that it is a false belief.
It has also done more damage to the world then islam over the past 200 years.
Quote:
Wings: That is quite a claim, can you substantiate it?
Quote:
HisServant: How would you have me substantiate something that didn't exist?
We know that the only term 'dispensation' was used in the scriptures was to contrast the old and new coventants.. and that is it.
As far as any other dispensational teachings... there are none. Some dispensationalist will try and point at one church father who was 'premillenial'.. but that is all he was.
Other then that, no one held to any type of dispensations until Darby dreamed them up... 1700 years later.
HisServant
Hi there,
I asked you if you could substantiate the claims you were making in the first quote (above), but you have replied with yet further claims which again you do not substantiate.
* How can I take you seriously 'HisServant'?
* What is the point in running down dispensationalists, or covenantists, or any other company of believer?
* I have not asked you what category you fall into 'HisServant,' for that is of little consequence. What matters, for each one of us, are the questions, 'Do you know the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour?' and
'Are you going on to grow in grace and truth and in the knowledge of Him?'
* As Paul said to the Corinthians, 'Is Christ divided?'
In Christ Jesus
Risen and glorified
and seated at God's right hand.
Wings
Last edited by Wings; December 8th, 2010 at 01:31 PM.
Slogan/motto:
For as much as it depends on you, live at peace with others.
Reputation:
December 8th, 2010, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wings
HisServant
Hi there,
I asked you if you could substantiate the claims you were making in the first quote (above), but you have replied with yet further claims which again you do not substantiate.
* How can I take you seriously 'HisServant'?
* What is the point in running down dispensationalists, or covenantists, or any other company of believer?
* I have not asked you what category you fall into 'HisServant,' for that is of little consequence. What matters, for each one of us, are the questions, 'Do you know the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour?' and
'Are you going on to grow in grace and truth and in the knowledge of Him?'
* As Paul said to the Corinthians, 'Is Christ divided?'
In Christ Jesus
Risen and glorified
and seated at God's right hand.
Wings
Substantiate it with what?... there simply is no early church evidence that dispensationalism was taught.
How can I produce something that never existed?
In realty, the ball is in your court as far as proof goes. Can you prove that the original disciples or even Jesus taught that there were multiple dispensations?
As far as your two questions, from a biblical point of view, I find them curious and would take me pages to explain why I think they are inane.
Slogan/motto:
'Let God be true and every man a liar'
Reputation:
December 8th, 2010, 01:43 PM
Quote:
HisServant:Dispensationalism is an 18th century invention by a couple of religious outcasts (one actually served time in jail for theft of his mother in laws inheritance).
It was also not taught by any of Jesus' disciples... so there can be no doubt that it is a false belief.
It has also done more damage to the world then islam over the past 200 years.
Quote:
Wings: That is quite a claim, can you substantiate it?
Quote:
HisServant: How would you have me substantiate something that didn't exist?
We know that the only term 'dispensation' was used in the scriptures was to contrast the old and new coventants.. and that is it.
As far as any other dispensational teachings... there are none. Some dispensationalist will try and point at one church father who was 'premillenial'.. but that is all he was.
Other then that, no one held to any type of dispensations until Darby dreamed them up... 1700 years later.
HisServant
Hi there,
You have quite missed the point. I was not asking you to provide proof as to the origin of dispensationalism, but to substantiate the points which I have now highlighted above. The first one particularly is a slanderous accusation, which in any other situation would not go unchallenged, so why should it be any different here HisServant?
Or are you perhaps not 'HisServant' but a servant of quite another, who is known to be 'the accuser of the brethren'?
Mat 7:20 'Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.'
In Christ
Wings
Last edited by Wings; December 8th, 2010 at 02:09 PM.
many believe that the chapters of Revelation are not necessarily sequential
and
each chapter can and should be considered all by itself
There is a progressing chronology in Revelation, but John (unlike Paul's linear style) does write cyclically (so he can refer to an event, add a parenthesis of explanation, then cycle back to the event later in the book). In prophecy, there can also be mention of the mountain peaks without seeing the valley in between (e.g. first and second coming mentioned in one verse or passage without details of the intermediate church age in between).
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
Along with the fact that quite a few biblical scholars conclude that Revelation was written 3 sections by 3 different authors at 3 different times and then stitched together later.
No solid evidence for this. It was John under the inspiration of the Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus is God Almighty or is He a creature? Is He God in the flesh or mere man or angel?
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
You have quite missed the point. I was not asking you to provide proof as to the origin of dispensationalism, but to substantiate the points which I have now highlighted above. For they are slanderous accusations, which in any other situation would not go unchallenged, so why should it be any different here HisServant?
Or are you perhaps not 'HisServant' but a servant of quite another, who is known to be 'the accuser of the brethren'?
Mat 7:20 'Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.'
Thank you for that. I can understand your thinking. The only thing is there is so much accumulative evidence which also needs to be in place isn't there, for it to fulfil the prophetic writings applicable to that time?
For this is the day when 'the Lord shall be king over all the earth' (Zech. 14:9); when 'the Lord of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously' (Isa. 24:23; 9:7). See also Jer. 3:17; 23:5. Micah 4:7. Ezek. 43:7.
Many scriptures tell of the glories of that 1,000 years. Briefly, those years will be characterised by,
1) the absence of Satan
2) the restoration of the earth (Ps.67:6) many physical marvels, converting its deserts into gardens, and causing its wildernesses to blossom as the rose;
3) changes in the sun, moon and stars, which shall affect the climates and fruitfulness of the earth.
4) changes in the nature and habits of the wild animals.
5) righteous government (Isa. 32:1; 29:18,19; 33:6).
6) life prolonged and health improved (Isa. 33:24; 65:20-23)
When the 1,000 years end, their blessedness does not end, but increases with the glory of the new heavens and the new earth (Rev. 21; 22).
With all this in mind I don't really see how the Byzantine empire can be anything other than a 'shadow', or 'type' maybe, but not it's fulfilment.
In Christ
Wings
I have noticed that when a dispensationalist has trouble explaining something in the New Testament they just quote a bunch of stuff from the old one
I said
Can I ask you a question? How can anyone hold onto an understanding of something that uses terms like, "maybe" "Almost always" and "most of the time" "may mean either"???
I am a covenantalist, and a dispensationalist.
I have no idea what you are talking about. You will have to clarify a wee bit.
Good response Wings.
Linear Mode
