toldailytopic: Can a person reject the divinity of Christ and still be a Christian?
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Slogan/motto:
In your patience possess ye your souls.
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February 5th, 2011, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
Good,
Now we are getting somewhere.
Note the following:
the ONE God, the Father, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible
right?
then:
Some questions:
What does the word "and" mean to you?
What does the word "son" mean to you?
What does the word "father" mean to you?
What does the word "begotten" mean to you? Think carefully. What does that word mean? Does begotten mean always been in existence? Or does it mean that there was a starting point for the begottee?
The Father begat the son before all ages. If it is so, that the son is eternal, is there really a need to be "begot"?
What does "Light of Light" mean?
Which verse that you listed contains the phrase, "Light of Light"?
What does "True God of True God" mean?
Does that phrase, "True God of True God" appear in John 17:1-5?
Did Jesus Christ misspeak? Did Jesus Christ miss something there?
Did the originators of the N. creed get some revelation from God that overrules what Jesus Christ actually spoke?
What does the word "of" mean?
John 5:30 Was Jesus Christ one essence with the Father because he did the will of the Father instead of his own will?
Would Jesus been one essence with the Father if Jesus had done his own will?
Did Jesus Christ automatically do the will of the Father?
Or did Jesus Christ choose to do the will of the Father over his own will?
Why would JC choose to do the will of the Father over his own?
If JC was God, why wouldn't Jesus Christ's will be "good enough"?
Don't the Father and son and hg agree in one? I John 5:7-8?
Are they not all three in one and of the same essence?
Why the difference of wills?
Since the Father is greater, the will of the Father must be greater?
I thought they are co equal?
Or does that word "co equal" not fit in your definition of the trinity?
Why is the Father's will superior to the will of Jesus Christ?
That is probably enough questions for now.
Is God logical and consistent or not?
oatmeal
Excellent analysis. 100% Biblically consistent. God bless you for daring to speak the Truth as written in Scripture instead of caving into the precepts of men written years later, despite their name-calling and attempt at marginalization
Are you aware of the only two things that God requires of a person to be saved?
Neither one of them teaches or alludes to a "divinity of Christ"
Read it for yourself in Romans 10:9-10
oatmeal
For Paul, 'Jesus is Lord' means Jesus is YHWH. This is based on the OT quotes about YHWH applied to Jesus. Paul was not saying to confess Jesus as any old lord or sir. He was saying to confess Jesus as Lord God, the King of kings, the Lord of lords. To submit to Jesus is to receive God Himself in Christ. Other verses identify Lord as God when applied to Jesus. Gk. Kurios/theos is used of God the Father and God the Son. It can also be used of false gods or lesser lords, so context is the issue.
Using your logic, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, etc. confess Jesus as generic lord and are saved despite diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive Christologies/soteriologies. 2 Cor. 11:4 is clear that there are counterfeit Christs who are not LORD. Jesus rejected false Christs. Using your logic, the title trumps the identity and reality of who/what it is applied to (hence Allah is the same God as YHWH? Nope!).
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
No where does the Bible show that Jesus received worship AS GOD. Trinitarians have created this delusion that the Bible forbids worship, per se, to be given to or accepted by anyone but God. But that's not Biblical. The word worship in the Bible means to pay homage to, to bow down in a sign of respect and honor. People of God have done this to kings, and have accepted this show of respect from others for themselves.
Daniel 2:46 shows Daniel accepting worship. 1 Chronicles 29:20 Shows David accepting worship. (Some translations use the term "worship" and others "paid homage." It's drawn from the same word in the original language).
Trinitarians will insist it was different with Jesus, but that is just their opinion. There is nothing in Scripture that tells us that he was accepting worship as God Himself.
Read Exodus 20:3-5. It forbids worshipping anything or anyone else as God, such as was done with idols. Ironically, this is precisely what the Trinitarians demand we do with Jesus. They demand we worship him as God, a clear violation of the first two commandments.
The same word about worship to God the Father is applied to Jesus. In Rev. 4-5, Jesus is worshipped co-equally with the Father. Heb. 1:6 has God Himself commanding angels to worship Jesus (the LXX verse in Deut. originally applied to YHWH, but is now applied to Jesus who is also YHWH). Jesus received worship (Jn. 20:28 there is only one true God for Jews; same phrase in LXX Psalms is used of YHWH), not just homage or obeisance (JW nonsense).
Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)
They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
February 5th, 2011, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
Are you aware of the only two things that God requires of a person to be saved?
oatmeal's basic error here is in assuming that the Bible is composed in the form of a systematic theology or compendium of discrete doctrines such that its contents can be used as a collection of didactic formulas to be applied to various theological questions---which, of course, it certainly is not.
Thus, it should be noted that the verse that oatmeal chose to extract and quote is hardly the only text in Scripture that touches on the subject of salvation or of Christ's divinity. It is not some sort of self-contained formula that exhaustively addresses the issue of salvation or the deity of Christ, as oatmeal seems to assume. His basic approach to biblical interpretation and application is simply reductionistic and, therefore, hopelessly erroneous.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
For Paul, Jesus is Lord, means Jesus is YHWH. This is based on the OT quotes about YHWH applied to Jesus. Paul was not saying to confess Jesus as any old lord or sir. He was saying to confess Jesus as Lord God, the King of kings, the Lord of lords. To submit to Jesus is to receive God Himself in Christ. Other verses identify Lord as God when applied to Jesus. Gk. Kurios/theos is used of God the Father and God the Son. It can also be used of false gods or lesser lords, so context is the issue.
Using your logic, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, etc. confess Jesus as generic lord and are saved despite diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive Christologies/soteriologies. 2 Cor. 11:4 is clear that there are counterfeit Christs who are not LORD. Jesus rejected false Christs. Using your logic, the title trumps the identity and reality of who/what it is applied to (hence Allah is the same God as YHWH? Nope!).
Thanks for having the patience to actually bother with these tiresome idiots. I just tell them to get off my porch as I whistle for the dogs.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
February 7th, 2011, 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by some other dude
Isn't it interesting that He-With-The-Loose-Bowels rejects such an approach when it supports the concept of the trinity?
>BAZINGA!<
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove? (Job 6:25 KJV )
Reputation:
February 7th, 2011, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight
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toldailytopic: Can a person reject the divinity of Christ and still be a Christian?
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No way that's a game breaker. If Christ was not God He could not save us so I don't understand why "christians" who do not believe in His divinity really bother with the whole program.
Christ is the qualifier, the divine qualifier. When a person is genuinely saved, born again, redeemed by the blood of the lamb, and making a confession of such, they know and recognize the Divinity of Christ.
Without believing and accepting Jesus Christ a one's Savior, then Christian is just a name.
How can a person say they believe in Christ and reject His Divinty, and be saved, you can't, either He is or He isn't.
I believe Christ Jesus is divine, and settles it for me...Praise the Lord!
And without Christ Jesus I could do nothing.
Yes, when a person is saved, "they know and recognize the Divinity of Christ." This is beyond doubt! Those not saved, will know in their hearts by faith, when personal will is given over to faith in Christ; those who deny the divinity of Christ, hold their own intellect above faith and that is their downfall.
Kat
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
I believe that Jesus who was called Yeshua in Hebrew when He walked this earth, is God. I think the strongest statement is in the first chapter of John. In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became flesh, and we called Him Yeshua, now known as Jesus, to English speaking people.
You have to really manipulate the Greek, or discredit the manuscripts, in order to have the first chapter of John say something other than God himself, became man, in the person of Jesus, as the Son of God.
That said, I certainly understand why many people can just not grasp that concept. For those people, the Bible says clearly that one must believe that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever might believe in Him, might be saved.
Peter told 3 thousand JEWS at Pentecost, that God had made Yeshua, both Lord and Christ, the anointed one. Repent and be baptized in His name.
Paul declares in Romans that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
There are several other passages. But it seems to me that if one truly believes that Yeshua is the Son of God, that He is your saviour, that He is your Lord, that He is the anointed one of God: That He was raised from the dead, for the forgiveness, and remission of sins, and-or one has been baptized in His name, that is the Biblical instructions for faith and salvation.
Such people are not commonly, nor traditionally considered Christians by the rest of us who know and believe that Yeshua is God.
However I can not think of a scripture that requires belief that Yeshua is God, as a prerequisite for forgiveness and salvation.
Therefore I do not agree with people who deny the divinity of Jesus, but I think that they are saved and Christians; if they truly believe in their heart, that He is at the very least the Son of God, their saviour and the Messiah and their Lord.
Very good examination. The final and inscrutable proof is not in the human mind, it is the soul, full of Grace! How does one find faith? By seeking, not just reading the Bible, but going into the Body of Christ and knowing in your heart, the person, who might say little, or have little station in this life, shines with a light brighter than the most wise. Salvation puts you on the path, we all have different walks, yet we all radiate something a seeker will find.
I pity the person who is locked away, examining texts to find the right word, because they are a man lost in themselves, a seeker of independence! Sin is the desire, for manifold reasons, to be apart, independent from God. Those who seek with a full heart will find! Those who care more about what they know and how much they impress, will inherit the wind.
Slogan/motto:
Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
Reputation:
February 7th, 2011, 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seydlitz77
No way that's a game breaker. If Christ was not God He could not save us so I don't understand why "christians" who do not believe in His divinity really bother with the whole program.
This is just a guess, but I would imagine they don't think we can't be saved without Christ being divine.
No where does the Bible show that Jesus received worship AS GOD. Trinitarians have created this delusion that the Bible forbids worship, per se, to be given to or accepted by anyone but God. But that's not Biblical. The word worship in the Bible means to pay homage to, to bow down in a sign of respect and honor. People of God have done this to kings, and have accepted this show of respect from others for themselves.
Daniel 2:46 shows Daniel accepting worship. 1 Chronicles 29:20 Shows David accepting worship. (Some translations use the term "worship" and others "paid homage." It's drawn from the same word in the original language).
Trinitarians will insist it was different with Jesus, but that is just their opinion. There is nothing in Scripture that tells us that he was accepting worship as God Himself.
Read Exodus 20:3-5. It forbids worshipping anything or anyone else as God, such as was done with idols. Ironically, this is precisely what the Trinitarians demand we do with Jesus. They demand we worship him as God, a clear violation of the first two commandments.
Excellent post friend
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
February 5th, 2011, 01:05 PM
If Christ was not God He could not save us so I don't understand why "christians" who do not believe in His divinity really bother with the whole program. 
believe it!
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