ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
If "our choice are logically prior to God's knowledge of them," then this implies God does not foreknow the future.
Just FYI. "Being precedes existence." Being is not contingent, existence is. But that's enough with the digression.
This is wrong. Your terminology is off. To speak of a God who "foreknows" or "does not foreknow" is to speak of a temporal God. All of God's knowledge is "present." This is a point that Boethius makes in the Consolation of Philosophy.
Either God knows or He does not know. Well, God is the Supreme Being. He must know. Does His knowledge have a causal relationship to my acts, or vice versa?
"Existence precedes essence." I am condemned to be free. I am not the sort of being to whom there can be a causal relationship to my acts. I am my freedom.
So it must be the other way around. God knows perfectly because I have decided. God has chosen that this world should exist because I have given it a positive content through my actions.
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2011, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian
If "our choice are logically prior to God's knowledge of them," then this implies God does not foreknow the future.
No, the orthodox view is grounded in the fact that the two parties in question are not both temporal beings. God is atemporal; God created time. If God were a temporal being restricted by time then the Openists would be correct.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
Now the question is: when are they decided? In the past before we were born? Or do we make our decisions in the present? If we make them in the present then God can't have exhaustive foreknowledge.
As I said to Damian: God doesn't "foreknow." There simply isn't the differentiation between "then" and "will be" for an Eternal God.
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2011, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom
God's foreknowledge about the future is not incompatible with our free will
Why isn't it?
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2011, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysostom
only if you put "exhaustive definite foreknowledge" in quotes
Are you qualifying God's omniscience? If so, then what exactly are the modifications or limitations of his omniscience?
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Why is the God of "open theism" without complete foreknowledge of the future?
Because he chooses not to micromanage his universe
He has told us he has delegated authority over the earth to us. So, as far as I can tell, he isn't any kind of a control freak. Besides, he is all powerful. If he knew what was going to happen, then that means there isn't anything he can do to stop something. And we know all things can be done through him.
Because he chooses not to micromanage his universe
He has told us he has delegated authority over the earth to us. So, as far as I can tell, he isn't any kind of a control freak. Besides, he is all powerful. If he knew what was going to happen, then that means there isn't anything he can do to stop something. And we know all things can be done through him.
Can you explain the bolded?
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
. . . and it is what God revealed to us about Himself in the Bible.
Such simple answers to what other people think is a good question. God declared things of himself in the his Bible. All we have to do is believe it.
I will now go down and see if the outcry against Sodom and Gomoroh is true, tells me he chooses not see things. Besides who wants to watch perversion like that?
If you could see something was going to happen, then it would be "destiny" and you couldn't stop it.
I don't think that this follows. What if God knows everything that is going to happen, and already has decided what He will and won't "stop"?
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
As I said to Damian: God doesn't "foreknow." There simply isn't the differentiation between "then" and "will be" for an Eternal God.
But doesn't God interact with us in time? Or do you not believe he interacts with us at all?
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
Slogan/motto:
Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me."
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2011, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by csuguy
But doesn't God interact with us in time? Or do you not believe he interacts with us at all?
Why would the classical concept of God be unable to condescend into a finite and temporal world? Why would He be barred from understanding our own existence and entering into our own mode of being? Indeed that is precisely what happened in the Incarnation.
God is not somehow less than time or barred from an interaction with a temporal realm, He is beyond time, the Creator of time.
"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformation’s understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)
But doesn't God interact with us in time? Or do you not believe he interacts with us at all?
In knowing and willing Himself, God knows and wills all particulars.
When a Man Lies He Murders
Some Part of the World
These Are the Pale Deaths Which
Men Miscall Their Lives
All this I Cannot Bear
to Witness Any Longer
Cannot the Kingdom of Salvation
Take Me Home
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2011, 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLA76
If God foreknows something then nothing than what God knows will happen can happen. In fact, all future events exist is some form of reality.
Well, many (if not most) theologians would argue that God is outside of time and that his view of all events from the perspective of "block time" does not preclude contingency. But I will grant you that this is a controversial position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLA76
If something other than what God knew would happen happens, then God would be wrong, which is not an acceptable attribute of God. This limits both God's ability to freely interact with creation and also eliminates human ability to choose otherwise.
Doesn't your position limit God's "omnisicence?" Also, as I have previously discussed in this thread, God's lack of foreknowledge does not necessarily imply that human beings have the capacity to "choose otherwise." If determinism holds true, then every choice we make could not have been otherwise. That God is ignorant of the future is irrelevant in this case.
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
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