Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
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Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
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Understanding the Atonement of Christ Jesus -
May 12th, 2011, 12:52 AM
Understanding the Atonement of Christ Jesus
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
When some people hear “the Lamb of God,” they immediately think of the Passover Lamb because Christ is our Passover (1Cor 5:7) and because the Passover lamb symbolized and foreshadowed the death of Jesus. It is true that Jesus fulfilled the Passover, but the Passover Lamb was never intended as a sacrifice to atone for sins and did not represent that. Therefore the Passover lamb could not be “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” We need to find a lamb that can do that. Further, Passover lambs could be from the sheep or the goats (Ex 12:5), so if there is a goat that takes away sin, then we have our lamb.
The ancient Scapegoat ritual performed every year on the Day of Atonement exemplifies the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the people (Lev 16:10; Lev 16:20-22). Jesus is the Scapegoat for all sin for all time (1Jo 2:2). Two goats were selected on that day, and lots were drawn to choose the scapegoat and the LORD's goat. The LORD's goat, who also represents Jesus, was slain as a sin offering to cleanse the temple, to make atonement for the tabernacle and most holy place because of the sins of the people (Lev 16:16); he was slain neither to cleanse the people of their sins nor to take away their sins, but to cleanse the shadow of our spiritual body (1Cor 6:19). The only goat that takes away the sins of the people is the Scapegoat, and that's very important.
Leviticus 16:20-22 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Our inheritance of eternal life could not have come by an act of blood atonement (Gal 3:18). Most Christians have wrongly been taught that Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins, but that is not grace and it obscures the gospel. However, their position is understandable considering a number of New Testament verses. (I ask you to please keep an open mind for this discussion.) In His law, God forbid one man dying for the sins of another man (Deut 24:16); it is a fundamental truth that every man will die for his own sins (Jer 31:30; Eze 18:20), and those scripture cannot be broken, else the Bible breaks. The Scapegoat was not killed; his blood was not shed. The sins of the people were simply placed on the Scapegoat (by faith) and they were taken away, reconciling God and His people without sacrifice. It was grace foreshadowed, mercy without sacrifice.
“Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!” Your sins were simply forgiven when you placed them on Jesus through faith, as the fulfillment of the Scapegoat; and the blood of Christ, which represents the Holy Spirit, has cleansed your temple as the fulfillment of the LORD's goat. God gave you mercy without sacrifice for your sins; he gave you a truly free gift; and used the death of his son to tell that story, to win your heart. That's quite a contrast to a Father that would require the death of one son to pay the debts of another and call that grace.
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Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
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May 12th, 2011, 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elohiym
Understanding the Atonement of Christ Jesus
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
When some people hear “the Lamb of God,” they immediately think of the Passover Lamb because Christ is our Passover (1Cor 5:7) and because the Passover lamb symbolized and foreshadowed the death of Jesus. It is true that Jesus fulfilled the Passover, but the Passover Lamb was never intended as a sacrifice to atone for sins and did not represent that. Therefore the Passover lamb could not be “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” We need to find a lamb that can do that. Further, Passover lambs could be from the sheep or the goats (Ex 12:5), so if there is a goat that takes away sin, then we have our lamb.
The ancient Scapegoat ritual performed every year on the Day of Atonement exemplifies the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the people (Lev 16:10; Lev 16:20-22). Jesus is the Scapegoat for all sin for all time (1Jo 2:2). Two goats were selected on that day, and lots were drawn to choose the scapegoat and the LORD's goat. The LORD's goat, who also represents Jesus, was slain as a sin offering to cleanse the temple, to make atonement for the tabernacle and most holy place because of the sins of the people (Lev 16:16); he was slain neither to cleanse the people of their sins nor to take away their sins, but to cleanse the shadow of our spiritual body (1Cor 6:19). The only goat that takes away the sins of the people is the Scapegoat, and that's very important.
Leviticus 16:20-22 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Our inheritance of eternal life could not have come by an act of blood atonement (Gal 3:18). Most Christians have wrongly been taught that Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins, but that is not grace and it obscures the gospel. However, their position is understandable considering a number of New Testament verses. (I ask you to please keep an open mind for this discussion.) In His law, God forbid one man dying for the sins of another man (Deut 24:16); it is a fundamental truth that every man will die for his own sins (Jer 31:30; Eze 18:20), and those scripture cannot be broken, else the Bible breaks. The Scapegoat was not killed; his blood was not shed. The sins of the people were simply placed on the Scapegoat (by faith) and they were taken away, reconciling God and His people without sacrifice. It was grace foreshadowed, mercy without sacrifice.
“Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!” Your sins were simply forgiven when you placed them on Jesus through faith, as the fulfillment of the Scapegoat; and the blood of Christ, which represents the Holy Spirit, has cleansed your temple as the fulfillment of the LORD's goat. God gave you mercy without sacrifice for your sins; he gave you a truly free gift; and used the death of his son to tell that story, to win your heart. That's quite a contrast to a Father that would require the death of one son to pay the debts of another and call that grace.
You are guessing and adding your opinion all over the place, and then calling it fact.
The truth is that you are still dead in your sins, denying the atonement of Christs shed blood.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
LA.
Many get called to be saved, then take upon themselves the demons of the fallen church before they give their life to God in return.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elohiym
The LORD's goat, who also represents Jesus, was slain as a sin offering to cleanse the temple, to make atonement for the tabernacle and most holy place because of the sins of the people (Lev 16:16); he was slain neither to cleanse the people of their sins nor to take away their sins, but to cleanse the shadow of our spiritual body (1Cor 6:19). The only goat that takes away the sins of the people is the Scapegoat, and that's very important.
Hi Elo,
What's your understanding of why the blood of the first goat was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat?
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
No, the scapegoat was let loose...the one that represented the LORD was killed...
you have it backwards...I repost:
I think it should be read in context, El...the one that represented Christ WAS KILLED.
Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
1. Notice there are two goats.
Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
2. Aaron was told to cast lots upon them, one was for the LORD, and the other was the scapegoat...which is the one that was NOT killed...the one for the LORD, was....as this chapter explains:
Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering.
3. Then Aaron was told to bring the one that fell to the LORD, as a sin offering..and, if you would read further down, it explains what happened to that one!
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
4. it was the scapegoat that was presented alive..and, it was NOT the one that represented JESUS! You have it backwards...sir.
Lev 16:11 ¶ And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which [is] for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which [is] for himself:
5. Do you see? The one that represented JESUS was KILLED.
It only represented Him, though..it had no power to remove sin...that is why it is written that it only pointed to Christ; but, that Christ was the REALITY:
Hbr 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Hbr 10:3 But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again [made] of sins every year.
Hbr 10:4 For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 08:32 AM
El,
I find it interesting that G&P does not believe that the goat which bore Israel's sins and "took them away" was a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
4. it was the scapegoat that was presented alive..and, it was NOT the one that represented JESUS! You have it backwards...sir.
In case you haven't heard, "He's alive!"
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
I find it interesting that G&P does not believe that the goat which bore Israel's sins and "took them away" was a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I find it interesting that you don't know the difference between the scapegoat, that did NOT represent Jesus, and the goat that DID represent Jesus..that WAS killed, to be a shadow of what JESUS would do in the future.
The scapegoat did NOT represent anything other than it pointed out that there would be NO real death that for it..because it could not remove sin to begin with.
Did you read the text.????this one did NOT represent the LORD; it was the other goat that did .There were two goats, and the one that was killed, the bible says plainly was the one that represented Jesus. People will goo so far to hold to their false teachings...to the fact that they do not even read the verses in context, so it seems.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 08:48 AM
Leviticus 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Psalm 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psalm 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
G&P: "NOT the Lord..."
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
Maybe if you put just one verse they will read it?
Lev 16:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which [is] for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which [is] for himself:
Tell me why the one that represented the LORD, was killed, and for Aaron and his house?
Leviticus 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquitiesunto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Psalm 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
Psalm 103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
G&P: "NOT the Lord..."
a land NOT inhabited...the wilderness..which is symbolic of how the old covenant could NOT save; could not give life, or habitation of life.
You guys crack me up. The wilderness does NOT represent the promised land...silly people.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
Maybe if you put just one verse they will read it?
Lev 16:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which [is] for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which [is] for himself:
Tell me why the one that represented the LORD, was killed, and for Aaron and his house?
Leviticus 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
a land NOT inhabited...the wilderness..which is symbolic of how the old covenant could NOT save; could not give life, or habitation of life.
You guys crack me up. The wilderness does NOT represent the promised land...silly people.
Who said it does? You are not very bright. Sorry.
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
Leviticus 16:5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
Yes; but go on a bit further ..ONLY one represented the LORD...and, it was NOT the scapegoat.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
May 12th, 2011, 08:54 AM
Sorry Elohiym.
I will bow out now. I didn't mean to get the Filibuster started.
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
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