[Jefferson]

RSF: Evolution of Finger Prints

This is the show from Friday May 27th, 2011.

SUMMARY:



* Can Darwinism Make Fingerprints? Real Science Friday co-hosts Fred Williams and Bob Enyart talk about the evolution of Real Science Friday the evolution of fingerprints!

* Evolution of Fingerprints: The fingerprint information management and maintenance system goes so far beyond and is so completely irrelevant to any physical gripping benefit of providing ridges for tactile functionality, that fingerprints could not evolve by the neo-Darwinist mechanisms of mutation and natural selection. Fingerprints in gorillas, chimpanzees, koala bears, and humans cannot evolve by any Darwinian process because no survival benefit in the wild could be conferred by any of the functional requirements in its complex multi-part system. Having no theoretical survival value means that evolution is back to pre-Darwinian days before natural selection was considered as a possible way of answering the mathematical impossibility of evolution. Consider however that the following system requirements provide no survival value, thus the large commitment of resources to develop and transmit this system cannot be explained by evolution:
- the system will vary the design between billions of individuals
- the system will begin to implement the unique prints in early offspring development
- the fingerprints will scale as tiny digits grow through puberty and into adulthood
- the pattern will survive and even re-emerge through most injuries to fingers
- the process of skin formation including the programmed cell death of billions of cells to constantly reform the epidermis will not alter the programmed pattern.
Understandably the Creator would put unique, lifelong fingerprints (and footprints) on human beings because of the importance of, and our ability to make use of, identification. But, why might the Creator put fingerprints on non-human creatures? You can find out by listening to this show!

* The Evolution of Real Science Friday: Bob and Fred talk about:
- the inception of Real Science Friday
- the polite threat from National Public Radio to stop using the name
- RSF's polite response
- the more than 120 freely-accessible shows in the Real Science Friday archives
- the recollections of favorite RSF programs.



Today’s Resource: You'll just love the science DVDs, books, and written, audio or video debates we offer through our Real Science Friday broadcasts! So have you browsed through our Science Department in the KGOV Store? Check out Bob most highly-recommended astronomy DVD, What You Aren't Being Told About Astronomy! And see Walt Brown’s great hardcover book, In the Beginning! You’ll also love Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez’ Privileged Planet (clip), and Illustra Media’s Unlocking the Mystery of Life (clip)! You can consider our BEL Science Pack; Bob Enyart’s Age of the Earth Debate; Bob's debate about Junk DNA with the infamous anti-creationist Dr. Eugenie Scott. And if you have young kids or grand kids, you owe it to them and to yourself to give them as a gift the SUPERB kids' radio programming on audio CD, Jonathan Park: The Adventure Begins! And Bob strongly recommends that you subscribe to CMI’s great Creation magazine and if you're up to reading more technical scientific articles, you'll also want to subscribe to CRSQ! And to order any of our BEL science products by phone, just call us at 1-800-8Enyart (836-9278).

* Special Editions of Real Science Friday:
- RSF's famous List of Not-So-Old Things
- Bob's debate with Christian Darwinist British author James Hannam
- PZ Myers blogs against Real Science Friday so we hit back with the PZ Trochlea Challenge
- Waiting for Darwin's Other Shoe: Science mag cover: Darwin Was Wrong on the Tree of Life
- Microbiologist in Studio: Creation Research Society Quarterly editor on new genetic findings
- Caterpillar Kills Atheism: describe how a bug could evolve to liquefy itself and then build itself into a flying creature
- And see the RSF Offer of $2,000 to get 16 letters of the alphabet in their correct places; $500 paid in 1998; $1,500 in 2010...

[The Barbarian]

The fingerprint information management and maintenance system...

Oh, oh...

...goes so far beyond and is so completely irrelevant to any physical gripping benefit of providing ridges for tactile functionality, that fingerprints could not evolve by the neo-Darwinist mechanisms of mutation and natural selection. Fingerprints in gorillas, chimpanzees, koala bears, and humans cannot evolve by any Darwinian process because no survival benefit in the wild could be conferred by any of the functional requirements in its complex multi-part system.

Gorillas have unique nose prints. So do dogs and cows. No doubt God wanted a way to ID gorillas and pooches. WFTH-I

But, why might the Creator put fingerprints on non-human creatures? You can find out by listening to this show!

Well, I think I'll forgo that bit of illumination. But thanks for the entertainment.

Biomechanically, fingerprints do two things:
1. Permit effective grip on both wet and dry items.
2. Prevent blisters by increasing the force needed to separate skin layers under friction.

Apparently, it doesn't matter if they are unique.

[Jukia]

My guess is that the pattern of hair follicles on my body is also unique. The spots on my dog are unique. Wow, that must mean we were both designed by Pastor Bob's god. Yep, its gotta be evidence of god. What else could it be? I don't know, and I don't want to try to figure it out, so it must be Pastor Bob's deity.

[Frayed Knot]

And they're very complex, which apparently is also a sign of Pastor Bob's god.

[Nick M]

hellbound 's that don't listen to shows that they comment about.

[Jukia]

Originally Posted by Nick M

hellbound 's that don't listen to shows that they comment about.

Are you suggesting that I need to listen to the show and not trust what gets posted in support of the show? Thats a tough one. Using that logic would require every fundy creationist who yelps about evolution to take some basic biology, chemistry, genetics etc. When you do that I'll start taking the time to listen to Pastor Bob along with his minions attempt to deal with science.

[Stripe]

Actually, Jukia and Barbie have missed a particular point that was made in the show which renders their comments irrelevant.

[The Barbarian]

But of course, Stipe isn't going to tell us what it is. We have to sit through the indoctrination to find out.

Given that he's a little shy about telling us what it is, it's not hard to figure out that he knows it's wrong.

[Stripe]

Barbara.

[The Barbarian]

Told you so.

[Frayed Knot]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

But of course, Stipe isn't going to tell us what it is. We have to sit through the indoctrination to find out.

I listened to the show. I have no idea what Stripe was saying was there, which would render any of your earlier points as irrelevant.

I never was able to figure out how Bob got from "fingerprints are complicated" to "they couldn't have evolved naturally." It was just his list of fingerprint characteristics, which he conveniently set every one of them as the goal of this hypothetical evolution, including the idea that they're unique to each person. All of that stuff you could also apply to the pattern of hair follicles on someone's body.

And why do the other apes have fingerprints? Because God felt like it. Silly question of you to ask!

Seriously, that was his answer. Overall, it was way more pathetic than my already low expectations after reading the earlier posts in this thread.

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Frayed Knot

I listened to the show. I have no idea what Stripe was saying was there, which would render any of your earlier points as irrelevant.

Really?

This:

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Oh, oh...

This:

Gorillas have unique nose prints. So do dogs and cows.

This:

No doubt God wanted a way to ID gorillas and pooches.

This:

WFTH-I

:squint:

This:

Biomechanically, fingerprints do two things:
1. Permit effective grip on both wet and dry items.
2. Prevent blisters by increasing the force needed to separate skin layers under friction.

This:

Apparently, it doesn't matter if they are unique.

And this:

Originally Posted by Jukia

My guess is that the pattern of hair follicles on my body is also unique. The spots on my dog are unique. Wow, that must mean we were both designed by Pastor Bob's god. Yep, its gotta be evidence of god. What else could it be? I don't know, and I don't want to try to figure it out, so it must be Pastor Bob's deity.

Are made utterly irrelevant by one little observation.

This:

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

Well, I think I'll forgo that bit of illumination. But thanks for the entertainment.

And this:

Originally Posted by Jukia

Are you suggesting that I need to listen to the show and not trust what gets posted in support of the show? Thats a tough one. Using that logic would require every fundy creationist who yelps about evolution to take some basic biology, chemistry, genetics etc. When you do that I'll start taking the time to listen to Pastor Bob along with his minions attempt to deal with science.

are just more examples of the bigotry and hatred evolutionists love to direct at BEL.

I never was able to figure out how Bob got from "fingerprints are complicated" to "they couldn't have evolved naturally."

That's because you missed one important little detail.

It was just his list of fingerprint characteristics, which he conveniently set every one of them as the goal of this hypothetical evolution, including the idea that they're unique to each person. All of that stuff you could also apply to the pattern of hair follicles on someone's body.

No, you couldn't.

[The Barbarian]

Of course, the fact that you won't tell us what that issue is, and we have to sit through your propaganda film to hear it, (although someone who did couldn't find it either) tells us how much confidence you have in it.

[Stripe]

It really doesn't matter. I'm sure there are all sorts of reasonable corrections you could make to Pastor Enyart's commentaries on evolution. The fact that you aren't prepared to even find out what they are, are not prepared to call him up and correct him and are only interested in taking pot shots on TOL all points to the same long list of inadequacies on your part that you're trying to lump on me.

[The Barbarian]

If you suppose he has a good argument, now would be the time to present it.

The fact that you won't pretty much tells us all we need to know about it.