Slogan/motto:
"All life is illusion, and limitation is a mental construct that can be altered anytime."
Reputation:
July 9th, 2011, 07:12 AM
We have brought out the double edged sword of the law.
Anti-abortionists say life starts at conception.
Others say life starts at birth.
And yet others say life starts at some other point.
Regardless, once it is determined a life has started and is considered a child, the law pertains to any abuse the child will suffer at the hands of another.
Abuse can be with intent to harm, knowing what ever your doing will cause injury to the child that is being carried.
Without intent to harm, doing something such as recreational drinking or drugs but still being concerned with the child's welfare for the most part.
The double edged sword will depend on those that are observing the mothers conduct and how zealous the authorities are.
Your personal intent towards this child will be determined by the courts if you should ever find yourself in this situation.
Be very careful when making decisions about new laws that govern an individuals freedom, you may not like the outcome.
What I am really have a problem with is the anti-abortionist that believes they should have the right to participate in known dangerous substances while carrying a child? This doesn't make sense when considering their pro-life stance, it's contradictory and just plain crazy!
Do not go gentile into that good night. D.Thomas
Out, Out, Brief Candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more, It is a tale told by an idiot, Full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. W.S.
Slogan/motto:
Of course you realize this means war! ~ Bugs Bunny
Reputation:
July 9th, 2011, 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
What I am really have a problem with is the anti-abortionist that believes they should have the right to participate in known dangerous substances while carrying a child? This doesn't make sense when considering their pro-life stance, it's contradictory and just plain crazy!
I agree, LB. Once a women is aware that she is pregnant, drinking, even in moderation should be out. Illegal Drugs (which shouldn't even be done in moderation) should also be out. Even the most naive of mothers should understand that every toxic substance that goes in her body, also affects her unborn baby.
Of course, I am speaking mainly of illegal drugs, however, m2b's should also give their physician a list of medications they are currently using even if the lists only consists of aspirin, iron supplements, etc.
It's not consistent, IMO, to tell women they can't or shouldn't abort because of the welfare of their unborn baby and then turn a blind eye to the substance abuse during pregnancy that will ALSO affect their baby.
"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated." ~ George Bernard Shaw
Slogan/motto:
"All life is illusion, and limitation is a mental construct that can be altered anytime."
Reputation:
July 9th, 2011, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha
I agree, LB. Once a women is aware that she is pregnant, drinking, even in moderation should be out. Illegal Drugs (which shouldn't even be done in moderation) should also be out. Even the most naive of mothers should understand that every toxic substance that goes in her body, also affects her unborn baby.
Of course, I am speaking mainly of illegal drugs, however, m2b's should also give their physician a list of medications they are currently using even if the lists only consists of aspirin, iron supplements, etc.
It's not consistent, IMO, to tell women they can't or shouldn't abort because of the welfare of their unborn baby and then turn a blind eye to the substance abuse during pregnancy that will ALSO affect their baby.
Do not go gentile into that good night. D.Thomas
Out, Out, Brief Candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more, It is a tale told by an idiot, Full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. W.S.
Are you saying that we don't need Child Protective Services to step in when a child is being abused?
And that we should not hold the parents responsible for their actions?
Red Herring. I said when the child is clearly in danger, law enforcement can step in a remove the child instantly.
CPS removes for things like living in an air-conditioned, safe 12xd24 storage container with mom and dad, homeschooling and with them all day. Even when this family with 6 children was given a house, they still don't want the family to have the children back. The baby 2 years, was nursing! They didn't even give her a pump so she could keep up her supply. They are still fighting to get their angels back. CPS is Nazi, and it's wrong. Wrong!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Have you seen what a new born looks like at birth that has an addict for a mother?
I've seen the propaganda, and also the back-story. Lots of babies get fetal alcohol syndrome for example, without even having alcoholic mothers. Have you ever seen a preemie pre-eclampsia baby struggling for life in an incubator? It's horrific and preventable in something like 95% of cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
A new born will go though withdrawal the same as an adult does when it is no longer getting the drug!
It's very sad. It's also very sad to see a baby with forceps damage to their face, neck and shoulder. Stupidity has a thousand faces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
In what way does remorse make a fit parent, especially if they are still addicts?
How many parents have learned from mistakes? Probably all! It doesn't automatically make one, which is why I support full intervention with drug addictions. Making drugs and sickness criminal is what got us into this mess to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
If we wait for a repeat offense the child may not survive!
Tell that to parents who like to drink a couple beers in the evening in front of the TV. How many children died like that? Little tot wanders behind stupefied mother and father for 5 minutes, then zap or crash! And game over. It's like an unlucky lottery, and if you are smart, you don't play it. But many who do will survive it. Stupid is as stupid does, legally or "illegally."
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Broken homes, homes of addicts with children, same thing.
Wrong. Children in foster care are at least 5 times more likely to be abused. And kidnapped children are sad children. To split a home is like chopping off body parts, in terms of psychological damage, unless the home is abusive and a clear danger, you don't inflict adoption on the child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Children deserve better and if the parents will not provide at least a safe environment with the bare necessities they don't deserve to have the children.
Children deserve to grow up knowing their real parents. Making choices about homes better be totally unambiguous and essential.
Slogan/motto:
"All life is illusion, and limitation is a mental construct that can be altered anytime."
Reputation:
July 9th, 2011, 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker
Red Herring. I said when the child is clearly in danger, law enforcement can step in a remove the child instantly.
No, you said,
"If the parents are endangering the child, harming or neglecting him, we don't need child protective services to get the child transferred to a safer location and prosecute the parents for breaking the law."
"I'm not against protecting children. But I don't believe that addiction to a drug during pregnancy is something that should be punished with removal of a child. Why don't we just cut out their hearts while we are at it?"
Quote:
CPS removes for things like living in an air-conditioned, safe 12xd24 storage container with mom and dad, homeschooling and with them all day. Even when this family with 6 children was given a house, they still don't want the family to have the children back. The baby 2 years, was nursing! They didn't even give her a pump so she could keep up her supply. They are still fighting to get their angels back. CPS is Nazi, and it's wrong. Wrong!
So you feel that 8 people living in a 12X24 storage container is adequate?
Never mind! Was going to discuss this with you but you seem to think that CPS is some kind of monster and you can not understand that they do not go around looking in windows in order to steal children from their parents....CPS is called in after the fact, after a child is hurt, after some one reports the parents for abuse, after the police drags away their mothers and fathers for crimes committed. etc. etc.
Enjoy your rant!
Do not go gentile into that good night. D.Thomas
Out, Out, Brief Candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more, It is a tale told by an idiot, Full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. W.S.
Last edited by lightbringer; July 10th, 2011 at 05:44 AM.
If someone is using drugs like cocaine, meth and soforth... it denotes addiction, and that addiction will always come before the child. Who they are in terms of socioeconomical status or how much they care for their child is irrelevant; a sense of entitlement does not trump a dependant's right to a safe enviornment. The child needs a new home until mom cleans up her act and stays that way.
The sentences are unjust ... but removing children from the situation is certainly justified. If there was a woman who was a frequent flyer, had repeated births with coke or meth turning up in the babies labs... a bit of jail time might provide some motivation. I've never had a drug problem, but I did have a problem with getting in trouble in high school. A few days in the pokey provided the motivation to straighten out- just sayin...
the Blessed Mother turns our prayers into a beautiful song before the throne of God.
"SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) are the most commonly prescribed antidepressants. They can ease symptoms of moderate to severe depression, are relatively safe and generally cause fewer side effects than other types of antidepressants."
Do not go gentile into that good night. D.Thomas
Out, Out, Brief Candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more, It is a tale told by an idiot, Full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. W.S.
"SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) are the most commonly prescribed antidepressants. They can ease symptoms of moderate to severe depression, are relatively safe and generally cause fewer side effects than other types of antidepressants."
"If the parents are endangering the child, harming or neglecting him, we don't need child protective services to get the child transferred to a safer location and prosecute the parents for breaking the law."
"I'm not against protecting children. But I don't believe that addiction to a drug during pregnancy is something that should be punished with removal of a child. Why don't we just cut out their hearts while we are at it?"
I said
Quote:
We already have laws that allow intervention in an overtly threatening situation. If the parents are endangering the child, harming or neglecting him, we don't need child protective services to get the child transferred to a safer location and prosecute the parents for breaking the law.
Do you understand? CPS uses private contractors to take children so they can get subsidy money to "take care of" the children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
So you feel that 8 people living in a 12X24 storage container is adequate?
Being homeless or poor is not a legal reason that CPS can take children. Adequate aside, these children have rights, and adaquate is always going to be relative to your financial status. People stepped forward, giving houses and thousands of dollars to get those kids back to their hard working parents. So far, they've only been able to visit weekly.
This is a human rights issue. The best interest of a child is to stay with their natural parents unless they are clearly in harm's way. clothes in boxes (different case) is not abuse, but it is to CPS. They are the organization that must go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Never mind! Was going to discuss this with you but you seem to think that CPS is some kind of monster
Taking children over clothes in boxes is monstrous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
and you can not understand that they do not go around looking in windows in order to steal children from their parents....
I have a friend who recently knew a foster parent who abused a girl to death but this was despite calls to CPS. But the parent was already a foster parent. Now she knows another woman who is abusing a tot - she's scared he'll be the next dead baby. She would report the woman, but guess what? This is another foster mom. She can publicly beat her kids (sadistically, I might add, because my friend is normally pro-spank and pretty anti-CPS) in front of friends any time or place. Nobody will take that baby. He'll get crushed and suffocated by a big butt for crying one day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
CPS is called in after the fact, after a child is hurt, after some one reports the parents for abuse, after the police drags away their mothers and fathers for crimes committed. etc. etc.
Enjoy your rant!
CPS wasn't called for those things in the cases I mentioned. When they have been, on foster parents (there are fabulous foster parents, too, this isn't general ripping on them) they ignore. That's what they do. It's about getting kids into the system.
And that's the problem. You don't know, not for sure. Everybody knows.... everybody knows... right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha
Illegal Drugs (which shouldn't even be done in moderation) should also be out.
I think making drugs illegal has been a very bad idea. Sure, ideally, I agree. I'm pretty square, but I can't fault those who aren't for thinking a different way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha
Even the most naive of mothers should understand that every toxic substance that goes in her body, also affects her unborn baby.
Then are we taught to get doped up for birth, told it won't affect the baby? Literal drugs that are like cocaine are given to laboring mothers, and you expect teens to understand that?
"you mean I have wait for labor to try that?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha
Of course, I am speaking mainly of illegal drugs, however, m2b's should also give their physician a list of medications they are currently using even if the lists only consists of aspirin, iron supplements, etc.
Should they be forced to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusha
It's not consistent, IMO, to tell women they can't or shouldn't abort because of the welfare of their unborn baby and then turn a blind eye to the substance abuse during pregnancy that will ALSO affect their baby.
Then you better bring on the toothbrush police. Gingivitis probably kills as many, if not more babies, even possibly causing brain damage for baby, than any drugs a woman takes for herself in pregnancy.
Regardless, once it is determined a life has started and is considered a child, the law pertains to any abuse the child will suffer at the hands of another.
So if the mother is drinking aspartame in pregnancy...? :squint:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Abuse can be with intent to harm, knowing what ever your doing will cause injury to the child that is being carried.
We don't need CPS to handle that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Without intent to harm, doing something such as recreational drinking or drugs but still being concerned with the child's welfare for the most part.
The double edged sword will depend on those that are observing the mothers conduct and how zealous the authorities are.
Bingo! Maximum mercy is needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
Be very careful when making decisions about new laws that govern an individuals freedom, you may not like the outcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer
What I am really have a problem with is the anti-abortionist that believes they should have the right to participate in known dangerous substances while carrying a child? This doesn't make sense when considering their pro-life stance, it's contradictory and just plain crazy!
Agreed. Most of those substances will endanger the mother, too, though. If mom feels it's safe for her, she will probably feel it's safe for her baby, right or wrong.
Slogan/motto:
"All life is illusion, and limitation is a mental construct that can be altered anytime."
Reputation:
July 10th, 2011, 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker
Derived from fluoride, too. Yum, yum.
? You are getting strange?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker
I said
Do you understand? CPS uses private contractors to take children so they can get subsidy money to "take care of" the children.
? And?
Quote:
Being homeless or poor is not a legal reason that CPS can take children. Adequate aside, these children have rights, and adaquate is always going to be relative to your financial status. People stepped forward, giving houses and thousands of dollars to get those kids back to their hard working parents. So far, they've only been able to visit weekly.
If the child's welfare is at risk due to being too poor to care for them or homeless (especially homeless), yes then it does come into question as to whether or not the child should be removed.
If their situation changes and they can demonstrate their ability to care for the children they will get them back...obviously this couple has not done this!
Quote:
I have a friend who recently knew a foster parent who abused a girl to death but this was despite calls to CPS. But the parent was already a foster parent. Now she knows another woman who is abusing a tot - she's scared he'll be the next dead baby. She would report the woman, but guess what? This is another foster mom. She can publicly beat her kids (sadistically, I might add, because my friend is normally pro-spank and pretty anti-CPS) in front of friends any time or place. Nobody will take that baby. He'll get crushed and suffocated by a big butt for crying one day.
I knew of someone that knew someone also?
Quote:
CPS wasn't called for those things in the cases I mentioned. When they have been, on foster parents (there are fabulous foster parents, too, this isn't general ripping on them) they ignore. That's what they do. It's about getting kids into the system.
If you want action, first call the police, they will notify CPS in an official capacity.
And that's the problem. You don't know, not for sure. Everybody knows.... everybody knows... right.
I think making drugs illegal has been a very bad idea. Sure, ideally, I agree. I'm pretty square, but I can't fault those who aren't for thinking a different way.
Then are we taught to get doped up for birth, told it won't affect the baby? Literal drugs that are like cocaine are given to laboring mothers, and you expect teens to understand that?
"you mean I have wait for labor to try that?"
Should they be forced to?
Ranting only makes you appear foolish.
Quote:
Then you better bring on the toothbrush police. Gingivitis probably kills as many, if not more babies, even possibly causing brain damage for baby, than any drugs a woman takes for herself in pregnancy.
Would like to see the study on that.
Quote:
Most of those substances will endanger the mother, too, though. If mom feels it's safe for her, she will probably feel it's safe for her baby, right or wrong.
Feels it is safe? You think when talking about a child that is still in the womb, asking a doctor may be helpful?
Have you personally be in the system, either as a child or as foster parent?
I have in 1957 in San Diego,California and 1959 in Mobile, Alabama, before CPS was organized, then, the only options were 6-12 weeks in reformatory for observation and evaluation and then, if a foster couple was available, and if child was not a violent child you would move to foster care. Today's system is by far head and shoulders above the old system.
If people are ever foolish enough to do away with the system they will be condemning thousands of children to death and or eventually a life of violence and crime for those that do survive abusive parents!
If you care about the welfare of children and do not like the way CPS operates then take CPS to task for what ever problems you think you see!
Setting back and ranting about people you know, that know people with crazy stories, does nothing for any child!
Do not go gentile into that good night. D.Thomas
Out, Out, Brief Candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more, It is a tale told by an idiot, Full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. W.S.
crazy!
"you mean I have wait for labor to try that?"
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