ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Why do open theists believe it takes "time" for God to process his thoughts? If God's mind is "infinite," then his thought-processes should be instantaneous - i.e. no time required. Open theism appears to render God's mind "finite."
That's very well put, in my opinion!
There are different orders of infinity also. Infinite sets can be treated in an analogous way to numbers. For example the infinite set of fractions between the numbers 1 & 2 will necessarily be smaller than the infinite set of all fractions.
The mind of God would correlate with the infinite set of all possible infinities.
Open theism does render the mind of God finite because, ironically, it has a finite view of free will. The power of unlimited Being is absolute.
Free will is essentially infinite, though existentially finite.
Slogan/motto:
"And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."
2 Timothy 2:24
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July 9th, 2011, 08:14 PM
God is infinite, but his creation is not. We have a sequential existence and God experiences it with us. Not because he is finite but because we exist one moment at a time. There is nothing for God to experience in relation to us but the now.
The finite can never reach the infinite, nor can 'time' reach eternity. You can always add '1' to the finite but not the infinite. In His Raw Being (apart from the Incarnation) God IS. (Please, let's not quibble over what 'IS' is!)
Why do open theists believe it takes "time" for God to process his thoughts? If God's mind is "infinite," then his thought-processes should be instantaneous - i.e. no time required. Open theism appears to render God's mind "finite."
Jeremiah 19
4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind
Judges 14
4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.
Hopefully you accept what the Bible teaches, and won't rebel against it. It is clear that God thinks about things. In fact, it shows that he thinks things through.
Hopefully you accept what the Bible teaches, and won't rebel against it. It is clear that God thinks about things. In fact, it shows that he thinks things through.
Damian doesn't believe the Bible at all. He follows something else called ACIM. That's why he puts 'other' in his affiliation. I don't really know why he debates here at all. As I have said a few times, I think he just needs something to fulfil his personal insecurities as his views are manifestly ludicrous but he would crack up if he came terms with that.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Last edited by Desert Reign; July 10th, 2011 at 07:19 AM.
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
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July 10th, 2011, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mortimer
There are different orders of infinity also. Infinite sets can be treated in an analogous way to numbers. For example the infinite set of fractions between the numbers 1 & 2 will necessarily be smaller than the infinite set of all fractions.
Agreed. This is "set theory."
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mortimer
The mind of God would correlate with the infinite set of all possible infinities.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mortimer
Open theism does render the mind of God finite because, ironically, it has a finite view of free will. The power of unlimited Being is absolute.
Free will is essentially infinite, though existentially finite.
Interesting. What exactly do you mean by "absolute free will?" (I assume you are referring to "God's will.")
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
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July 10th, 2011, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inzl Kett
A. Time to an Open Theist is not a dimension. It is a mere abstract construct used to describe a sequence of events.
Does this "sequence of events" taking place in God's mind take time to play out?
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
July 10th, 2011, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLA76
God is infinite, but his creation is not. We have a sequential existence and God experiences it with us. Not because he is finite but because we exist one moment at a time. There is nothing for God to experience in relation to us but the now.
Does God see anything as past or future relative to his frame of reference?
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
July 10th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick M
Jeremiah 19
4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind
Judges 14
4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.
[U}Hopefully you accept what the Bible teaches, and won't rebel against it. It is clear that God thinks about things. In fact, it shows that he thinks things through[/u].
I accept that you believe God's "thought-processing" capacity is finite.
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
July 10th, 2011, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Reign
Damian doesn't believe the Bible at all. He follows something else called ACIM. That's why he puts 'other' in his affiliation. I don't really know why he debates here at all. As I have said a few times, I think he just needs something to fulfil his personal insecurities as his views are manifestly ludicrous but he would crack up if he came terms with that.
I definitely believe the Course is more inspired than the Bible. But I do not believe that it is inerrant or infallible (that's a doctrine that is completely unintelligible to me). That being said, this should not be misconstrued to mean that I hold the Bible to be of no spiritual value whatsoever.
Why do I debate here? Because this is the "Religion" forum, not the "Exclusively Christian Theology" forum. I don't believe I have violated any of TOL's terms of service. If it offends you that I do not hold the Bible to be authoritative or that I am challenging your theological positon, then I suggest you go to the "Exclusively Christian Theology."
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
Reputation:
July 10th, 2011, 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crossnote
The finite can never reach the infinite, nor can 'time' reach eternity. You can always add '1' to the finite but not the infinite. In His Raw Being (apart from the Incarnation) God IS. (Please, let's not quibble over what 'IS' is!)
"Oneness is simply the idea God is. And in His Being, He encompasses all things. No mind holds anything but Him. We say "God is," and then we cease to speak, for in that knowledge words are meaningless." - "A Course in Miracles"
* Selah *
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
1) Open Theism doesn't state what you are attacking
2) Anything which is animate necessarily has time. Actions take time to perform. Whatever you think is "ideal" - scripture clearly reveals a God who talks, thinks, and acts in time. Without time, God would be inanimate and unable to change in his actions.
If you have material wealth, but do not give to those in need, then the love of God is not in you. Whatever you have done for the least of these you have done for HIM. To give to the poor is to lend to the LORD.
Interesting. What exactly do you mean by "absolute free will?" (I assume you are referring to "God's will.")
Yes, that's right.
More precisely, the transcendental will of God, beyond creation, beyond all form. The existential will of God is a relational expression of His transcendental will, accommodating and raising finite consciousness.
Slogan/motto:
"Love separates for the sake of union." - Rumi
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July 10th, 2011, 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mortimer
Yes, that's right.
More precisely, the transcendental will of God, beyond creation, beyond all form. The existential will of God is a relational expression of His transcendental will, accommodating and raising finite consciousness.
So, what exactly do mean by "existentially finite?" And what is its relation to our will?
"The concepts which now prove to be fundamental to our understanding of nature...seem to my mind to be structures of pure thought...the unvierse begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine." - Sir James Jeans
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