[Totton Linnet]

Didn't you ever look down upon an ant hill? what a busy world is going on down there, those termites are not conscious of YOU but YOU can watch and observe ALL that is going on with them.

As a kid I used to grab my jar and net and my spaniel/lab dog and would be off to the local pond....what hours of pleasure, God help anything that moved especially if it had a tail. Little fishies, newts all were pounced upon, netted and captured to be chucked into my jar then hoisted unceremoniously into the air for a good old boggle before being allowed to return thankfully [if somewhat traumatised] back into it's natural habby.

Time is not suspended eternity it is suspended IN eternity, God is in both time AND eternity. He sees everything, He knows everything and He can do anything in relation to His creation. He sees YOU right now this minute and knows everything about you, past present and future.

If it were a man with such knowledge and power we would worry, if it were a devil we would tremble exceedingly but it is God, God is Love. And He made all for His pleasure, pleasure which He has chosen to share with us.

[glassjester]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

God is in both time AND eternity. He sees everything, He knows everything and He can do anything in relation to His creation. He sees YOU right now this minute and knows everything about you, past present and future.

Spot on!

[godrulz]

I fully agree, except the 'future' clause. The future is fundamentally different than the fixed past and actual present.

There is no providential advantage for God to know the future, even if He could (the issue is whether He logically can or not in light of free will) because He could not change the future even if He wanted to. If one is omnicompetent, providential, responsive, they do not need a crystal ball or determinism to bring His will to pass. A chessmaster is great because He has ability and intelligence, not because he sees all the moves in advance of the other player, reads his mind, or causes the guy to move like a puppet (this is a lesser vs greater view of God).

Some think that God sees the future and knows you will get killed by a drunk driver. With this knowledge, he then changes things in response to prayer so the foreseen event does not happen and you do not get killed. This is nonsense because it would mean God's foreknowledge was false, not true (foreknowledge fixes the future fatalistically or God is believing something untrue). God cannot see a future contingency like this (except as it is unfolding) nor is it necessary to do so to intervene in light of angels and His omnipotence in real space-time. Intelligence and power are the issues, not crystal ball foreknowledge.

The future is not there to see like the past/present was/is. Time is unidirectional. The future is not a thing or place to go or see. It is becoming reality, but is not an object of knowledge until it is actual. If an agent can make contingent choices, the future is unsettled/unknown. If it is seen, then the agent is not the one settling it (incoherent or raw determinism vs free will).

After 30 years, I am convinced that exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical contradiction/absurdity like an omnipotent God making a rock too heavy to lift (the problem is with a dumb question, not a limitation on omnipotence). Either we give up free will, love, relationship, responsibility or we realize that God voluntarily limits His ability to have EDF by creating other free moral agents with a say so to change/actualize the future, even in a way contrary to His will (yet He can respond to any contingency by His intelligence/ability, even without EDF). Having EDF and determinism is not what the sovereign God wanted because of love (exalting a wrong view of Calvinistic sovereignty is the problem, in addition to wrong views of free will like compatibilism vs LFW; issues of the nature of creation, time, eternity also factor in).

If we get a right view of sovereignty, free will, time, etc., I believe Open Theism will stand as the best world view theologically (www.opentheism.info). Other views like Calvinism and Arminian simple foreknowledge are problematic.

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by godrulz

I fully agree, except the 'future' clause. The future is fundamentally different than the fixed past and actual present.

There is no providential advantage for God to know the future, even if He could (the issue is whether He logically can or not in light of free will) because He could not change the future even if He wanted to. If one is omnicompetent, providential, responsive, they do not need a crystal ball or determinism to bring His will to pass. A chessmaster is great because He has ability and intelligence, not because he sees all the moves in advance of the other player, reads his mind, or causes the guy to move like a puppet (this is a lesser vs greater view of God).

Some think that God sees the future and knows you will get killed by a drunk driver. With this knowledge, he then changes things in response to prayer so the foreseen event does not happen and you do not get killed. This is nonsense because it would mean God's foreknowledge was false, not true (foreknowledge fixes the future fatalistically or God is believing something untrue). God cannot see a future contingency like this (except as it is unfolding) nor is it necessary to do so to intervene in light of angels and His omnipotence in real space-time. Intelligence and power are the issues, not crystal ball foreknowledge.

The future is not there to see like the past/present was/is. Time is unidirectional. The future is not a thing or place to go or see. It is becoming reality, but is not an object of knowledge until it is actual. If an agent can make contingent choices, the future is unsettled/unknown. If it is seen, then the agent is not the one settling it (incoherent or raw determinism vs free will).

After 30 years, I am convinced that exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical contradiction/absurdity like an omnipotent God making a rock too heavy to lift (the problem is with a dumb question, not a limitation on omnipotence). Either we give up free will, love, relationship, responsibility or we realize that God voluntarily limits His ability to have EDF by creating other free moral agents with a say so to change/actualize the future, even in a way contrary to His will (yet He can respond to any contingency by His intelligence/ability, even without EDF). Having EDF and determinism is not what the sovereign God wanted because of love (exalting a wrong view of Calvinistic sovereignty is the problem, in addition to wrong views of free will like compatibilism vs LFW; issues of the nature of creation, time, eternity also factor in).

If we get a right view of sovereignty, free will, time, etc., I believe Open Theism will stand as the best world view theologically (www.opentheism.info). Other views like Calvinism and Arminian simple foreknowledge are problematic.

Oh William you are wading far, far out from the shore, where are the scriptures in all of this? you is a man of God, I know that...you must be able to see this is philosophy and not God. It is the direct result of rejecting predestiny [now I've made you cross] first comes free willery then comes this.

But throughout the bible God is telling men about future events as if they had already happened. Just think of Isaiah.

[andyc]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

Didn't you ever look down upon an ant hill? what a busy world is going on down there, those termites are not conscious of YOU but YOU can watch and observe ALL that is going on with them.

As a kid I used to grab my jar and net and my spaniel/lab dog and would be off to the local pond....what hours of pleasure, God help anything that moved especially if it had a tail. Little fishies, newts all were pounced upon, netted and captured to be chucked into my jar then hoisted unceremoniously into the air for a good old boggle before being allowed to return thankfully [if somewhat traumatised] back into it's natural habby.

Time is not suspended eternity it is suspended IN eternity, God is in both time AND eternity. He sees everything, He knows everything and He can do anything in relation to His creation. He sees YOU right now this minute and knows everything about you, past present and future.

If it were a man with such knowledge and power we would worry, if it were a devil we would tremble exceedingly but it is God, God is Love. And He made all for His pleasure, pleasure which He has chosen to share with us.

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by andyc

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

You me and William and Grace are united on most things

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

Oh William you are wading far, far out from the shore, where are the scriptures in all of this? you is a man of God, I know that...you must be able to see this is philosophy and not God. It is the direct result of rejecting predestiny [now I've made you cross] first comes free willery then comes this.

But throughout the bible God is telling men about future events as if they had already happened. Just think of Isaiah.

Predication, declaration, vision, etc, is not the same thing as the future actually existing like the present or past.

Open Theism has much biblical support, but some issues are not dealt with in proof texts, so godly philosophy is legit to sort through issues not addressed in Scripture, yet true.

God predestines some vs all of the future. What He predestines, He can know. What is contingent has an element of uncertainty, especially remote vs proximal.

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by andyc

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

Poetic, not didactic. Did God intend for a believer to be raped and murdered? God saw us in the womb because this is present, certain knowledge that even an ultrasound can see. The days about the future are God's intentions, plans, purposes, not micromanagement or prescience. God intends that we serve Him, but we have the free will to thwart this. The blueprint model of God's will is not biblical.

[Totton Linnet]

Betsy and Corrie ten Boom stood naked in front of German soldiers in Ravensbruch, Betsy died there in miserable circumstances, although in death her bodily appearance was miraculously transformed and she was made radiant so that even the cruel guards were overcome with awe.

God forewarned them in a vision that as a family they would suffer for helping the Jews.

[andyc]

Originally Posted by godrulz

Poetic, not didactic.

A poetic lie you mean?

Did God intend for a believer to be raped and murdered?

No.

God saw us in the womb because this is present, certain knowledge that even an ultrasound can see.

There is no equipment on the planet that can see an unformed foetus.

The days about the future are God's intentions, plans, purposes, not micromanagement or prescience. God intends that we serve Him, but we have the free will to thwart this. The blueprint model of God's will is not biblical.

God can show us his will, but we have the freewill to blow it. Saul is an example of that.

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by andyc

A poetic lie you mean?




No.



There is no equipment on the planet that can see an unformed foetus.



God can show us his will, but we have the freewill to blow it. Saul is an example of that.

*
Saul was saved for Samuel [when he was raised up] told him that on the morrow he would be with him where he was, see how that even when God punishes so severely He adds reassurance concerning salvation.

[glassjester]

Originally Posted by godrulz

God predestines some vs all of the future. What He predestines, He can know.

I do wonder how this is possible. If God truly does not know the future because the free actions of human beings could take history down an almost limitless number of possible routes, how could He predestine anything? Would not some or even most of his predictions be wrong?

For example, God knows when the end will be, to the day and the hour. Jesus says people will be going about their daily lives, eating, drinking, working, when He comes again (Matthew 24:36 - 44).

Yet, could not the freely willed actions of men bring about the death of all human beings before this time (ie nuclear or biological war)?

You might argue that if this were to happen, God would intervene and bring about the end before all died; but He already knows the day and the hour. Surely this is not possible if the future is nonexistent and therefore unknowable.

[Totton Linnet]

Originally Posted by glassjester

I do wonder how this is possible. If God truly does not know the future because the free actions of human beings could take history down an almost limitless number of possible routes, how could He predestine anything? Would not some or even most of his predictions be wrong?

For example, God knows when the end will be, to the day and the hour. Jesus says people will be going about their daily lives, eating, drinking, working, when He comes again (Matthew 24:36 - 44).

Yet, could not the freely willed actions of men bring about the death of all human beings before this time (ie nuclear or biological war)?

You might argue that if this were to happen, God would intervene and bring about the end before all died; but He already knows the day and the hour. Surely this is not possible if the future is nonexistent and therefore unknowable.

Bless you, I go much further than this for it was by "God's determinate plan that Jesus was delivered up to be crucified" God makes even man's and yes the devil's wickedness serve His predestined plan. And this was foretold in the garden of Eden.

[Lazy afternoon]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

*
Saul was saved for Samuel [when he was raised up] told him that on the morrow he would be with him where he was, see how that even when God punishes so severely He adds reassurance concerning salvation.

Samuel was dead.

The spirit which spoke to Saul could not have been actual Samuel because God refused to speak to him by the three legal ways provided by God , so why would God allow a witch to bring up Samuel, which the penalty for using was death?

The spirit told Saul that Saul would be dead with it by tomorrow.

If Saul was assured of salvation then one can throw spears at the utmost righteous, have the Holy Spirit taken from him, and break every rule of righteousness revealed to man, and still be saved.

Jer 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

LA

[godrulz]

Originally Posted by Totton Linnet

Betsy and Corrie ten Boom stood naked in front of German soldiers in Ravensbruch, Betsy died there in miserable circumstances, although in death her bodily appearance was miraculously transformed and she was made radiant so that even the cruel guards were overcome with awe.

God forewarned them in a vision that as a family they would suffer for helping the Jews.

This is not proof of EDF. Based on exhaustive knowledge of past/present reality, God could predict this, allow it, orchestrate it, reveal it. He did not know or reveal this a million years ago, but proximal to the event (cf. Judas, Peter, etc.).

You and I can accurately predict things as can weathermen and insurance stats dudes. If God would have given a detailed vs general vision of Corrie and Hitler in the OT involving a myriad of free choices, you might have a point.