ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlunae
No, not yet. Science may eventually show us a way.
Something out of absolutely nothing? Forget it.
Quote:
But we don't know for sure that there ever was nothing...
There couldn't have been, since there is something here now. Exactly my point.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
Something out of absolutely nothing? Forget it.
Well, I wouldn't rule it out so easily. It's little more than an intuition that you can't get something from nothing, and the reality is that we don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
[font="Georgia"]There couldn't have been, since there is something here now. Exactly my point.
Except that that doesn't entail the existence of a god.
Eternal life is an easy promise to make and a hard one to fulfill.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlunae
Well, I wouldn't rule it out so easily. It's little more than an intuition that you can't get something from nothing, and the reality is that we don't know.
Given that it's folly to argue with irrationality on a loop, I'll simply leave you to your beliefs.
Quote:
Except that that doesn't entail the existence of a god.
It would have to be something which is personal, independent, omnipotent, and infinite. Sounds an awful lot like "God" to me.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
Slogan/motto:
think for yourself question authority
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 05:37 PM
People are anti-catholic or anti-christian in general becuse of a few points. 1) the thought control inherrent in the system. 2) priests touching kids 3) claiming the world is 6000 years old 4) the absolutism i,e is you don't believe what we say you go to hell 5) a history of killing anyone who is not christian 6) demanding that non-believers obey the morality taught by the church 7) christianity is a closed system and does not allow for new ideas or free thinking. 8) a 2000 year tradition of book burning
I could go on and on but I think you get my point.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlunae
And I'll just note that you can't demonstrate the principle.
It's inescapably self-evident to rational people.
Quote:
'Why?' to each.
Seriously: Metaphysics 101.
Quote:
Convenient.
Reality can be like that.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
People are anti-catholic or anti-christian in general becuse of a few points. 1) the thought control inherrent in the system. 2) priests touching kids 3) claiming the world is 6000 years old 4) the absolutism i,e is you don't believe what we say you go to hell 5) a history of killing anyone who is not christian 6) demanding that non-believers obey the morality taught by the church 7) christianity is a closed system and does not allow for new ideas or free thinking. 8) a 2000 year tradition of book burning
I could go on and on but I think you get my point.
Slogan/motto:
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
It's inescapably self-evident to rational people.
I don't deny that it's intuitively compelling. But it isn't really established. And the implied insult doesn't really help to convince me of your rationality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
Seriously: Metaphysics 101.
Seriously. I'm familiar with the entire argument that you've presented so far. But I prefer not to make straw men, so I let you argue your side instead of trying to argue it for you. If I were to list the standard reasons given for each of the traits you've listed, and then dispute each one, it wouldn't be much of a discussion, would it? If you're not interested in a discussion, fine, but I have to wonder what you're doing here in that case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruciform
Reality can be like that.
Occasionally. And also, sometimes, stranger than we're willing to imagine.
Eternal life is an easy promise to make and a hard one to fulfill.
Slogan/motto:
Gaudium de veritate (Latin, "Delight in the truth")
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexlunae
...If you're not interested in a discussion, fine, but I have to wonder what you're doing here in that case.
Actually, I'm here to discuss the stated topic of this thread, which is not metaphysical theism.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
People are anti-catholic or anti-christian in general becuse of a few points.
1) the thought control inherrent in the system.
This is the same as point 4.
Quote:
2) priests touching kids
OK, that is bad but ministers abusing their popularity to make huge fortunes - charlatans in effect - are also well known amongst the protestants.
Quote:
3) claiming the world is 6000 years old
I don't think Catholics do this.
Quote:
4) the absolutism i,e is you don't believe what we say you go to hell
What is wrong with that? Surely it's better than saying nothing at all? Saying nothing has caused more death and suffering in humanity than all other causes put together in my view.
Quote:
5) a history of killing anyone who is not christian
Again, this is a fair point, however, non-Christians also have a history of killing those who disagree with them.
Quote:
6) demanding that non-believers obey the morality taught by the church
This point is a repeat of number 4.
Quote:
7) christianity is a closed system and does not allow for new ideas or free thinking.
That's far too big a generalisation to be meaningful and more likely reflects your own prejudice against Christianity than any particular defect with Christianity itself. I should think that a Christian would feel happy if that's all you thought of him. At least it shows that Christianity is preserving itself.
Quote:
8) a 2000 year tradition of book burning
Que?
Quote:
I could go on and on but I think you get my point.
I'm glad you didn't go on, but no, I don't see your point at all. I see prejudice as well as just a little bit more prejudice and half-formed thoughts and vague unsupported insinuations.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Don't know where you got the idea that this was a Catholic notion, but it simply isn't. The idea that the universe is less than 10,000 years old derives from a marginal note in old copies of the Protestant King James Bible. Most Catholics do not affirm this idea at all.
Quote:
4) the absolutism i,e is you don't believe what we say you go to hell
Which part of this do you have a problem with?---the fact that truth is mutually exclusive with falsehood, or the reality of hell? In any case, your claim is simply incorrect; the Church has never taught any such notion.
Quote:
5) a history of killing anyone who is not christian
Again, simply a false statement on your part. You need to adequately educate yourself regarding ecclesiastical history in general, and the history of the Catholic inquisitions in particular.
"The very tradition, teaching, & faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles & preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded..." ~ St. Athanasius (4th cent.)
July 26th, 2011, 05:05 PM
Linear Mode
