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The consequences of sin come not from free will...for if we had free will how could there be consequences?
The consequences of sin come from rebelling against God's law, if we were under law how did we have free will? and if we are now sold into bondage because of sin, how do we now have free will?
's' no such thing as free will, it is a lie, a deception.
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Should I care that you are offended? Should I don sackcloth and ashes and come and beg your pardon?....................
You could do that and still not look as crackers as you do in this thread trying to redefine "free will". Nobody uses the term like you are insisting here.
Marge: "Aren't you going to give him the last rites?"
Rev. Lovejoy: "That's Catholic, Marge - you might as well ask me to do a voodoo dance."
"Oh bother" said Pooh, as he chambered the next round.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin
You could do that and still not look as crackers as you do in this thread trying to redefine "free will". Nobody uses the term like you are insisting here.
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Yes they do...Amy would have
Neither do I mind at all how I look in your eyes, the term free will may mean one thing to christians but what it means in plain language is you can do as you please, you are free, there are no restrictions.
In fact [I know you are very superior in wisdom] that is also how a great many christians interpret it too, for they sometimes say boldly or at least imply that God tempted/tested Adam to see if he would obey.
It was no test, God straitly charged him not to do it, we are not talking about an apple tree here, we are talking about imbibing to himself forbidden knowledge...it was not the little sin of biting into an apple as often depicted.
If God forbade him to partake of knowledge of good and evil then he was under law, he had free choice, he could live as he was created, and he was created FREE and BEAUTIFUL and needing nothing or he could rebel against God and surrender his obedience to Satan.
That is what he did under the ILLUSION that he Adam would himself be like God, able to discern good and evil, that is to say he would have free will....that was the deception Satan used.
Slogan/motto:
Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Reputation:
July 26th, 2011, 09:15 AM
Is Amy Winehouse Katy Perry's stage name?
1. Land forever. Gen 17:8 (KJV)
2. City FROM heaven. Rev 21:2 (KJV)
3. Heavenly places. Eph 2:6-7(KJV)
Don't mix them, leavening the whole household of God. Luke 13:21 (KJV)
Slogan/motto:
Admit when you're wrong, be slow to believe.
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July 26th, 2011, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack
I don't see how anybody can think people don't make their own decisions. If we don't, why bother arguing with us? We're only going to respond the way our strings are being pulled. It's all a big charade.
Because how we interact with people can change how they act. Rocks aren't free, but if you want it off a hill all you do is give it a push.
The love of learning, the sequestered nooks,
And all the sweet serenity of books.
Slogan/motto:
DYNAMIC: God is active, plural, and caring in nature. FREE: God's future is open for freedom of action. THEISM: God is infinite, personal being; rational and moral
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July 26th, 2011, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totton Linnet
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Should I care that you are offended? Should I don sackcloth and ashes and come and beg your pardon?
The fact is a young woman of enormous talent is dead after a considerably long period of personal torment, are you concerned about that? or are you of the sort who just mutters pious phrases and nice sounding platitudes? say the right thing at the appropriate occasion.
It is not drugs and perverted sexual practices that are killing young lives needlessly in a land of plenty, and what about the misery of their lives?
It is the ideas they adopt, the way they think, the beliefs they espouse, the guiding principles [or lack of them] that form their opinions and lifestyle.
If you tell the sinner [my fine feathered friend] that he is living a life of sin according to his own free will, he will raise his hands and say "what can I do? I enjoy what I am doing, all my friends are doing the same thing"
In their hearts they may wish they were better people, they may well regret that they are hurting people all around them, they do not understand why they are like that...why life is like that.
They may wish that SOMEBODY would love them unconditionally for who they are or despite what they are.
If you show them what the bible says that they are [far from having free will] but "are in bondage to beings which by nature are no gods, the elementary spirits of the universe"
That mankind is a sinner, not because of free will, but because our first parents have sold us into slavery to a murderous enemy who has only come to steal and to kill and to destroy us.
They might then like to listen about the One sent by God that we might have life and have it more abundantly.
The church is the foremost propagater of the idea that men and women are free to do as they wish which is the only meaning free will can have. The church is selling a LIE.
It is not the doctrine of the reformers.
Free will does not mean that God said we are free to do whatever we want.
Free will means that we are responsible for what we do, God is not.
If Winehouse was free to call on God for help, and she did not seek God's help, then she is responsible for her suffering and death.
If Winehouse was not free to call upon God for help, and God did not help her, then God is responsible for her suffering and death.
For you to charge those who believe in free will as being responsible for Winehouse's suffering and death, while believing there is no such thing as free will, is irrational because free will teachers are not free to do other wise, according to you.
Actually, you are really accusing God of all suffering and damnation since only God can set anyone free from sin and death and give eternal life, as you see it.
Your thread should read, "God killed Amy Winehouse".
And that is reprehensable.
--Dave
www.dynamicfreetheism.com
The only view of ultimate reality that provides
rational answers to the questions of human origin, destiny, and dignity.
The only view that proves the existence and explains
the nature of God.
Free will does not mean that God said we are free to do whatever we want.
Free will means that we are responsible for what we do, God is not.
If Winehouse was free to call on God for help, and she did not seek God's help, then she is responsible for her suffering and death.
If Winehouse was not free to call upon God for help, and God did not help her, then God is responsible for her suffering and death.
For you to charge those who believe in free will as being responsible for Winehouse's suffering and death, while believing there is no such thing as free will, is irrational because free will teachers are not free to do other wise, according to you.
Actually, you are really accusing God of all suffering and damnation since only God can set anyone free from sin and death and give eternal life, as you see it.
Your thread should read, "God killed Amy Winehouse".
And that is reprehensable.
--Dave
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This is corkscrew logic, I readily admit that it is by far and away the predominant belief...does that make it truth? was not the church in UTTER darkness for a thousand years?
Free will was never a doctrine preached by the reformers, have you read Luther's "Bondage of the will" I think I prefer the company [intellectually of Luther]
Free will means nothing scripturally because you will never find God saying "behold I give unto you free will" everyone assumes it, just like everyone assumes the bible teaches God predestinated some to damnation because Calvin taught it...they are too darn lazy to search out the matter for themselves so they chuck the whole idea of predestination [even though the bible is full of it] and they have to fill in the gap, so they do so with this NEW doctrine of "free will"
The simple truth is that God forbids sin, that is not free will, God says a person who sins is a slave to sin, that is not free will either.
If God forbids a thing and somebody chooses [and I do believe in free choice] to rebel then THEY and they alone are responsible.
If I set before you a road and command you to walk it, this is not free will. If I set before you TWO roads and command you to choose which road to walk, faithfully explaining to you that one road leads to life and the other to death, this is no more free will than the one road.
There ARE no other roads...you have no choice but to choose.
Adam was FREE because he was what God had created him to be, now mankind is not free Paul says he is in bondage, he is a sinner by nature and he is bound to sin.
What part of bondage spells free will? the only hope any man has is if God will have mercy...I thank God He is plenteous in mercy.
It is free will that accuses God, I say God forbade, God warned solemnly. It is the devil who teaches that man is his own master and may do whatever he pleases.
Instead of telling folks they have free will the church shoud be explaining to people that the reason they are destroying themselves is because they are in the grip of a ruthless murderous enemy.
I will show you where you are mistaken because you do not see that sin and rebellion is a choice that mankind has ALREADY made, it is not a future decision. Man is fallen...he already is slain spiritually, "slain in trespasses and sin" all that awaits is the judgement.
It is this that Paul calls bondage, tell me somebody who is not bound to sin, if he is bound to sin how then is his will free?
If there was no last minute confession of faith, why wasn't Amy saved?
Arminianists = she never accepted Christ.
Calvinist = She wasn't one of the elect.
Totton?
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Neither position, the whole weight of apostolic preaching in the book of acts [the kerygma] is upon the One whom God has appointed to judge the living and the dead, there is never a word in the sermons of the apostles about hell in acts.
Salvation is salvation from sin, "thou shalt call His name Jesus for He will save His people from their sins" THAT is the true emphasis, people get off on this hellhire and brimstone stuff, but it is sin and the bondage thereto that has always wreaked misery and destruction to humanity.
That is a false [or at least distorted] gospel which bids people save themselves from hell....people do not think about that, they need to know why their lives NOW are so awful....go tell them
That it is because they have free will? no but because they are in bondage to a cruel master whose intention is to torment and kill them....but there is One sent from God to redeem us....go and tell them.
My position is that all will stand before Him on that day and only HE will judge, only HE can.
But the wicked shall be turned into hell, why should they not? I have not found that even the wicked can disagree with that and it is the truest bible position that I can find.
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Her BONDAGE killed her, she believed she had free will...that's what the church by and large teaches.
You cannot on the one hand say she was bound and on the other hand say that she had free will. And that is true for every other man Jack.
As long as she had the choice to choose Christ; she had freewill, you have changed the meaning of what the very essence of it is meant to teach, and why.
We all have the choice, Adam and Eve had the choice, it is the choice that is freewill. Let's not make it something other than it is.
This is why so many silly arguments, if you want to argue against freewill, learn how it is defined by those whom uphold it....would be my suggestion, otherwise, you are just building a strawman argument that no one even believes.
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Yes rebellion, a refusal to accept God's sovereign will, and yet His will for man is only GOOD, it only ever has been good, the best, who knows better than God who created me what is best for me?
"The thief has come only for to steal and to kill and to destroy them, but I am come that they might have life and have i more abundantly"
yes, and we have a choice to not rebell....(freewill).
Yes they make their own decisions, and end up in a mess...the church is full of it.
Their decisions led them into one bondage or one blind alley or another....what they should have done is to seek the Lord and get His decision...His decision leads to LIFE and fruitfulness.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and LEAN NOT unto your own understanding.
It is nothing to do with strings it is walking in the Spirit and being led of the Spirit...it is all according to the new LIFE and nature within us through Jesus.
Again, as humans, we have to choose to follow..that is the basis of freewill, in that God created in us that ability to choose. Why are you trying to say it means something else?
My position is that all will stand before Him on that day and only HE will judge, only HE can.
yes, but He does not judge any man by what He would of forced them to be/do, He judges the heart; through one fact..whether or not we of our own freewill, ACCEPT what He freely offered. You cannot accept what is freely offered unless you have the freewill CHOICE to do so.
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