ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
I agree. I'm interested in Stripe's response, since he's dismissing relativity as simply an effect on clocks, not on actual time.
He could just say the clock is based on C (as any electronic chip would be), and its rate is driven by the changing speed of light in a varying gravitational field. He believes gravity effects the speed of light just as we believe it dilates time. He could plug his values into the equations and come up with effectively the same results we do, as long as special relativity isn't taken into account. I'm not sure what his views on that are.
Last edited by One Eyed Jack; August 29th, 2011 at 10:43 PM.
Actually, we synchronize it with Earth-bound clocks initially (a second is always a second, wherever one happens to be). When it gets into orbit, we have to re-synch taking time dilation into account.
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Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack
We also have to calculate for its orbital velocity. Unless it's geosynchronous, in which case it's always in the same place as far as we're concerned, and therefore shares the same inertial frame of reference.
OK.
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You and I see the same results -- we're just looking at the equations in a different way. You see time as a constant and C as a variable. I see the opposite. Either way, the end results still work out the same.
But my method is easier to conceptualise.
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Originally Posted by fool
And there in a nut shell is the root of all our various differences mate. (not that our differences have ever caused us not to get along)
You, seem to think that (based on your above statement) Yaweh gave Adam the first level and all levels are calibrated against that level.
But we don't have that level anymore.
I am of a mind that we (mankind) figured out/defined level.
Assumptions play into this and those need to be defined and examined.
But that's what a conversation is all about, right?
Where did you get that from?!?!
I agree with you that people figured out how to find level. Do you have an answer to your question?
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Originally Posted by glassjester
I agree. I'm interested in Stripe's response, since he's dismissing relativity as simply an effect on clocks, not on actual time.
You're too stupid to talk to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Eyed Jack
He could just say the clock is based on C (as any electronic chip would be), and its rate is driven by the changing speed of light in a varying gravitational field. He believes gravity effects the speed of light just as we believe it dilates time. He could plug his values into the equations and come up with effectively the same results we do, as long as special relativity isn't taken into account. I'm not sure what his views on that are.
I think it is possible that the velocity and the gravity effects on clocks are the same thing. But I've yet to find anyone willing to discuss this topic sanely enough in order to get to that possibility.
If there is a God that gave us a brain then he would expect us to use it.
Yes! Which is why I see no inherent conflict between science and faith. Science is merely the study of how God created things.
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Originally Posted by fool
How do you check if your level is reading correctly?
You can either check it against a known level surface or, when buying a new one, you can use two levels together to determine if they are reading true. You can also check a level against itself by setting it to level, drawing a line, flipping the level end for end and checking the line.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Namely, that it is not the recognized definition of a second.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
I know that's answering a question with a question but I see it as the crux.
The speed of light varies based on the medium it is passing through. The speed of light (c=186,277 mi/sec) is the speed of light in a vacuum. The speed of light in glass is less than c. To make things more interesting, different wave lengths of light travel at different velocities in glass (which is why a prism splits light).
The speed of light within any given medium is constant for that medium but the speed of light in different mediums is not the same.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
The speed of light is constant, by definition. The duration of 1 second is not. It is dependent on the movement of light.
If the speed of light changed, the length of one second would change with it. Time is determined by the speed of light in a very literal sense.
Which is why the second is not defined by the speed of light. The speed of light is based on the definition of a second.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Slogan/motto:
The Church was not founded on the Bible. The Bible was assembled by the Church.
Reputation:
August 30th, 2011, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
Which is why the second is not defined by the speed of light. The speed of light is based on the definition of a second.
Ok. You're talking about this definition then, right?
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Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.
Are you saying this definition isn't reliant upon the speed of light?
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
"Caesium-based atomic clocks observe electromagnetic transitions in the hyperfine structure of caesium-133 atoms and use it as a reference point."
What is electromagnetic energy made of?
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
"The photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic interaction and the basic unit of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation"
The photon, being the quantum of light, moves at (you guessed it!) the speed of light.
A second is defined as a number of periods of electromagnetic radiation that mark a specific type of transition in a caesium atom.
Light is electromagnetic radiation.
So yes, the speed of light does determine what a second is, because the movement of photons is, by definition, the speed of light. If light suddenly started moving faster, the caesium atom would transition between levels faster. That would make the second faster. If the speed of light suddenly slowed down, the caesium atom would transition between levels more slowly. That would make the second slower.
Ok. You're talking about this definition then, right?
Are you saying this definition isn't reliant upon the speed of light?
What is electromagnetic energy made of?
The photon, being the quantum of light, moves at (you guessed it!) the speed of light.
A second is defined as a number of periods of electromagnetic radiation that mark a specific type of transition in a caesium atom.
Light is electromagnetic radiation.
So yes, the speed of light does determine what a second is, because the movement of photons is, by definition, the speed of light. If light suddenly started moving faster, the caesium atom would transition between levels faster. That would make the second faster. If the speed of light suddenly slowed down, the caesium atom would transition between levels more slowly. That would make the second slower.
While a photon is a form of electromagnetic radiation, it is not the only form of electromagnetic radiation. Other forms include magnetic and electric fields. The definition of the second is independent of a photon or of c.
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Mechanism
Since 1967, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as the duration of 9192631770cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the caesium-133 atom.[13]
This definition makes the caesium oscillator the primary standard for time and frequency measurements, called the caesium standard. Other physical quantities, e.g., the volt and the metre, rely on the definition of the second in their own definitions.[14]
The actual time-reference of an atomic clock consists of an electronic oscillator operating at microwave frequency. The oscillator is arranged so that its frequency-determining components include an element that can be controlled by a feedback signal. The feedback signal keeps the oscillator tuned in resonance with the frequency of the electronic transition of caesium or rubidium.
The core of the atomic clock is a tunable microwave cavity containing the gas. In a hydrogen maser clock the gas emits microwaves (the gas mases) on a hyperfine transition, the field in the cavity oscillates, and the cavity is tuned for maximum microwave amplitude. Alternatively, in a caesium or rubidium clock, the beam or gas absorbs microwaves and the cavity contains an electronic amplifier to make it oscillate. For both types the atoms in the gas are prepared in one electronic state prior to filling them into the cavity. For the second type the number of atoms which change electronic state is detected and the cavity is tuned for a maximum of detected state changes.
Note that the clock is measuring microwave frequencies, not photons.
Once the second is defined than velocities, such as c, can be determined based on a standard measure of time.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Slogan/motto:
The Church was not founded on the Bible. The Bible was assembled by the Church.
Reputation:
August 30th, 2011, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
While a photon is a form of electromagnetic radiation, it is not the only form of electromagnetic radiation. Other forms include magnetic and electric fields. The definition of the second is independent of a photon or of c.
Are you kidding me?
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
"The photon is the quantum of the electromagnetic interaction and the basic "unit" of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation"
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Originally Posted by Physics.org
"Photon is the name given to a quantum of light or other electromagnetic radiation."
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Originally Posted by Physics.org
"The photon is the exchange particle responsible for the electromagnetic force. "
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Originally Posted by Astronomynotes.com
"You can consider light as packets of energy called photons. A photon is a particle of electromagnetic radiation."
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Originally Posted by Nasa.gov
"Electromagnetic radiation can be described in terms of a stream of photons, which are massless particles each traveling in a wave-like pattern and moving at the speed of light."
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Originally Posted by Nasa.gov
"Each photon contains a certain amount (or bundle) of energy, and all electromagnetic radiation consists of these photons."
But you objected...
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Originally Posted by CabinetMaker
Note that the clock is measuring microwave frequencies, not photons.
Microwave frequencies of what? Of electromagnetic radiation! And yes, the photon is the quantum of ALL forms of electromagnetic radiation, including that which causes oscillations in the structure of the caesium atom, and therefore defines the second.
Microwave frequencies of what? Of electromagnetic radiation! And yes, the photon is the quantum of ALL forms of electromagnetic radiation, including that which causes oscillations in the structure of the caesium atom, and therefore defines the second.
Yes, electromagnetic radiation propagates at the speed of light. No, a second is not defined based on the propagation speed of a photon, it is based on the number of osculations of the cesium atom.
[box]
Since 1967 the international standard definition of one second,established by an international system of units(SI System)has been the radiation frequency of a caesium atom- that is-9,192,631,770 hertz (cycles per second). the frequency is measured by a caesium clock which regulates a quartz clock.]/box]
The speed of propagation is not used to define a unit of time. A unit of time is required to accurately determine speed which is defined as a unit of length per unit of time. It is more accurate to define a unit of time based on a single measurable quantity such as the oscillations of an atom than on two quantities such as a distance and a velocity. To many variables to control such as distance, the reference particle of velocity and the medium that the reference particle will travel through. Then, of course, you have to have an accurate timer so that you can measure the time that it takes the reference particle to travel the distance. Which presents certain problems since you don't have a definition of a second until you can accurately measure the time it takes a particle to travel a fixed distance. I hope you see the problem with trying to use a velocity as a standard definition of time.
Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Your "catholic" is showing. - Sozo
Where did you get that from?!?!
Linear Mode
