[Granite]

No actually you are not a witness, are you.

Yes, I am. And since you seem to be nothing more than a liar and a troll I'm putting you on ignore, right where you belong.

P.S. Judging from what others have said you also seem to be sending some pretty rotten PM's, as well. You're a real class act.

[rainee]

Originally Posted by Granite

Yes, I am. And since you seem to be nothing more than a liar and a troll I'm putting you on ignore, right where you belong.

P.S. Judging from what others have said you also seem to be sending some pretty rotten PM's, as well. You're a real class act.

I became a troll again?
I sent a pm to Bybee.
But I was only telling her I thought she was a wolf in sheep's clothing because she said peace peace to those who had obvious problems with God and she had said such ugly cruel things to me back when I was new here! Did you ever see them? I thought it was atrocious at the time because all I was thinking about was Glenda and Katie and a guy on the crucifixion of Christ thread. Not that you should understand the importance of that to me, no, but as basic info.

Man, she came out of nowhere. But I told her then at the time I would take what she had to say - but for her to know she had had her turn to say what she thought of me- she had shot her wad.
The next turn would be mine to say what I thought of her.
Fair is fair, isn't it?
Now I didn't do it in public so how do you know what I said to her?

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by Granite

I would say that usually there's no discernable difference at all.



Echoes of Gandhi's observation. It's telling that so many Christians are galled by such comments. Outside criticism is not something Christianity as a system handles terribly well. For a religion that at least makes a pretense of encouraging self-reflection, I don't see much evidence of it.



The Christ Message itself is fairly benign (and, as I've said before, if it were actually followed, the world would be better for it).



His followers, maybe. Though for every good deed there seems to be a black mark in the ledger.



A handful. My Catholic in-laws, for one. That Anglican priest I mentioned earlier. And I've known several Mormons who exemplify truly Christ-like behavior.

Very well. I don't really disagree with any of that.

I don't think any group takes outside criticism well though. Certainly there are places where Christianity failed in recognizing the truth of that criticism, but it must be recognized that Christianity is grounded in the notion that it is at least in part at odds with "the world." For that reason it shouldn't be surprising that Christianity doesn't bend to every criticism the world makes of it.

The Christ Message itself is fairly benign (and, as I've said before, if it were actually followed, the world would be better for it).

I have to scratch my head a bit at this point and wonder at the specifics of your initial criticism. In a sense it seems you are criticizing hypocrites or liars or simply evil men, not Christians per say. It isn't the Christian message you disagree with, it is men who claim to follow it but actually do not, no? Or do you think there is a necessary connection between Christ's life and teaching and the evil found in Christianity today? Or specific doctrines of Christianity and the evil?

[Granite]

I don't think any group takes outside criticism well though. Certainly there are places where Christianity failed in recognizing the truth of that criticism, but it must be recognized that Christianity is grounded in the notion that it is at least in part at odds with "the world."

Good point; it is at least partly antagonistic by nature.

In a sense it seems you are criticizing hypocrites or liars or simply evil men, not Christians per say.

In a way it's a chicken and egg argument--did the hypocrisy come later, or did the faith empower someone who was a hypocrite to begin with?

It isn't the Christian message you disagree with, it is men who claim to follow it but actually do not, no?

The message of Christ as contained in the gospels isn't my cup of tea by the virtues he encouraged are admirable in their own way. That message has been completely overlooked, warped, abused, and distorted for at least the last century in this country and has morphed into some bizarre kind of hybrid that is at odds with the gospel Christ.

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by Granite

In a way it's a chicken and egg argument--did the hypocrisy come later, or did the faith empower someone who was a hypocrite to begin with?

So which do you think it is? Does evil necessarily come from Christ's message or only accidentally via the evil in humans?

The message of Christ as contained in the gospels isn't my cup of tea by the virtues he encouraged are admirable in their own way. That message has been completely overlooked, warped, abused, and distorted for at least the last century in this country and has morphed into some bizarre kind of hybrid that is at odds with the gospel Christ.

I agree at least partially, but if you were to come to Mass with me on Sunday I think you would be hard pressed to point out such things. Or if you listen to an average Catholic sermon what evil will you find? I mean we see the mistakes and are definitely trying to correct them. It is also true that there is genuine progress being made in any number of areas.

Your points would concern me more if:

1. There were no good, nay, exemplary Christians to look up to both today and in the past
2. The problems were being continually ignored and never addressed
3. I found a general lack of piety and love and repentance in my fellow pew-sitters

But to be honest, I can't agree to any of those points (at least in the Catholic Church which is all I can really speak on). I don't realistically expect perfection from the Church, but I do expect genuine renewal and repentance and progress toward Christ. And I do see it. Also, I think that following in Christ's footsteps is the right way to go about this change (the path of non-violent and unbending love; leading by example in sync with well-focused and well-intentioned criticism).

[Lost Comet]

Originally Posted by rainee

Hi Fzappa
I am going to try to look up you name after I post this, what you wrote intrigued me!

You never heard of Frank Zappa??!

[Granite]

So which do you think it is? Does evil necessarily come from Christ's message or only accidentally via the evil in humans?

The message is abused and goes from there. If people did what Jesus commanded--give up your possessions, be kind, treat everyone you meet as you'd like to be treated--it'd be one thing. The gospel is covered with a two-thousand-year-old crust of barnacles. Whoever or whatever Jesus was (assuming he existed) what he had to say is fundamentally harmless; the system that has grown up around it is monstrous.

1. There were no good, nay, exemplary Christians to look up to both today and in the past

There will always be a handful of good, decent people to be found within any given group. (Well. Almost always.)

2. The problems were being continually ignored and never addressed

As a Catholic, of all things, you might want to think twice before lobbing this particular stone.

3. I found a general lack of piety and love and repentance in my fellow pew-sitters

Depends on the people and place, no?

I don't realistically expect perfection from the Church, but I do expect genuine renewal and repentance and progress toward Christ. And I do see it.

Then we simply disagree. Then again I'm a back-slidden Protestant so our perspectives and backgrounds do differ...

[zippy2006]

I added this to the last message a bit late, it is an important addition:

Also, I think that following in Christ's footsteps is the right way to go about this change (the path of non-violent and unbending love; leading by example in sync with well-focused and well-intentioned criticism).

Originally Posted by Granite

The message is abused and goes from there. If people did what Jesus commanded--give up your possessions, be kind, treat everyone you meet as you'd like to be treated--it'd be one thing. The gospel is covered with a two-thousand-year-old crust of barnacles. Whoever or whatever Jesus was (assuming he existed) what he had to say is fundamentally harmless; the system that has grown up around it is monstrous.

Understood. I disagree: I'd say the system (orthodox Christianity) has failed often enough but still contains the main substance of the message. But that's for another day.

There will always be a handful of good, decent people to be found within any given group. (Well. Almost always.)

Okay sure, but I meant it to be stronger than that. The number of true saints (people who have given everything for God and neighbor) that the Church has in Her books is unprecedented. More than decent people, these are truly inspiring lives.

As a Catholic, of all things, you might want to think twice before lobbing this particular stone.

Better late than never?

Depends on the people and place, no?

Probably. I can only work with what I have. But it does exist in one place, which is more than some can say. Not to bash atheists, but I have certainly never seen a group of atheists weeping for their sins against their fellow man, or trying with such serious energy and focus to rise above such things. It just doesn't have the same priority on their agenda.

I guess the point is that if you are going to a place where people who claim to follow the teachings of Christ are gathered, you will have a better chance of finding the aforementioned love and goodness, at least insofar as people tell the truth.

Then we simply disagree. Then again I'm a back-slidden Protestant so our perspectives and backgrounds do differ...

Yes, drastically. Yeah I'm not saying your old congregation deserves anything more than disdain. I'm just saying there are some of us who do try, that all the congregations aren't like that, and that it might be worth a peek to see if there are churches who honestly try to walk with Jesus in the same way you once did.

... But I did walk away from the Church after being told by a religious education teacher that no one outside of the visible bounds of the Church could be saved, not even if they had never heard of Christ or had a chance to say yes. So we're not completely polar opposites here.

[Granite]

Okay sure, but I meant it to be stronger than that. The number of true saints (people who have given everything for God and neighbor) that the Church has in Her books is unprecedented. More than decent people, these are truly inspiring lives.

Catholic lore doesn't even impress every single Catholic out there, zip.

Better late than never?

Assuming it's stopped. Or that it will be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. I'm not holding my breath.

Probably. I can only work with what I have. But it does exist in one place, which is more than some can say. Not to bash atheists, but I have certainly never seen a group of atheists weeping for their sins against their fellow man, or trying with such serious energy and focus to rise above such things. It just doesn't have the same priority on their agenda.

I'd submit that "groups of atheists" probably crop up here and there to advocate a given issue, not wallow in the same Judeo-Christian hang ups and guilty hand-wringing they by nature reject. Just throwin' it out there.

I guess the point is that if you are going to a place where people who claim to follow the teachings of Christ are gathered, you will have a better chance of finding the aforementioned love and goodness, at least insofar as people tell the truth.

Buyer beware!

Yeah I'm not saying your old congregation deserves anything more than disdain. I'm just saying there are some of us who do try, that all the congregations aren't like that, and that it might be worth a peek to see if there are churches who honestly try to walk with Jesus in the same way you once did.

I'm well aware that never every church is a theocratic fascist work camp. That said, I'd be a hypocrite and liar if I ever went back. I didn't reject the faith because of that one church, zip--but reject it I have. Returning is simply not in the cards. It's all a lie, a myth, or wishful thinking, or happy thoughts, and some branches are healthier than others...but the roots are buried in nonsense.

But I did walk away from the Church after being told by a religious education teacher that no one outside of the visible bounds of the Church could be saved, not even if they had never heard of Christ or had a chance to say yes. So we're not completely polar opposites here.

Well done! So I see you didn't take as hard a line as Mel Gibson did, back in the day.

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by Granite

Catholic lore doesn't even impress every single Catholic out there, zip.

You said there didn't seem to be any Christians who truly followed Christ, I noted the saints, and then you implied that you don't believe the historical documentation recording such people. I think I lost this one before the gates were even open.

Assuming it's stopped. Or that it will be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder if people will turn their focus to other groups, both secular and religious, who have a problem in this area magnitudes of order greater than the Catholic problem and are actually doing nothing about it? Looks like we are both breathing easy.

I'm well aware that never every church is a theocratic fascist work camp. That said, I'd be a hypocrite and liar if I ever went back. I didn't reject the faith because of that one church, zip--but reject it I have. Returning is simply not in the cards. It's all a lie, a myth, or wishful thinking, or happy thoughts, and some branches are healthier than others...but the roots are buried in nonsense.

Well I hope you'll one day reconsider and read some history and literature that actually represents the other side of the coin--there is plenty out there. It seems you've focused only on one side in the wake of disappointment and some emotional turmoil. Even if Christianity turns out to be false, I could never objectively support the kind of animosity toward Christianity that you seem to feel is justified. A good historical look at Christianity and the historical misrepresentations is given in Hart's Atheist Delusions.

[fzappa13]

Originally Posted by Granite

That doesn't help much.



I'm not trying to, but I don't think you're explaining yourself very well, either.



Again: through the filter of my senses.



I'm not entirely sure. Evolutionary theory seems to be the best explanation we have right now although if you look into multiverse theory, who knows; we may well be the spin-off of another older universe. I simply don't know.

Okay, to summate, your understanding of what is around you is the result of the input of your senses and this has led you to embrace the notions of evolution and, possibly multiverse theory and to reject christianity ...


....okay.

I'm a Libra, which means it was cold outside, snow on the ground, my parents had nothing else to do...

And this was offered in response to my inquiry as to how you came to be. This is a weather report ... not an answer. Yes, you are flippant ... about a subject worthy of more respect, one would think.

Whatever we make of it. I don't believe there's an overarching purpose to the universe. The meaning of life is what you choose it to be.

... and this in response to my inquiry as to the purpose of all this ... which brings to mind the written offering of yet another musician ...

... "Nothing matters and what if it did?" Eh?

Here's to hoping you make it out the other side of your John Cougar phase ... he did.

Why do you think I need an organized system to replace it?

I don't ... I was just wondering if you had embraced one. Evidently you have embraced evolutionary theory and are flirting with the notion of Multiverse theory if I understand your answers correctly ... all as a result of the input available to you through your senses.

[fzappa13]

Originally Posted by rainee

Hi Fzappa
I am going to try to look up you name after I post this, what you wrote intrigued me!

I thought you might see his conceptual continuity when you saw he does not believe in any higher being than man.

But he essentially believes man to be one big smakaroo of a being.
He said he believes and has witnessed human spirits that live after death and float around for others to see.

That is one powerful indomitable spirit - if it never dies.
Has he ever said whether he thinks dead animal spirits float around and some can see them too?

I guess he would have to accept that if he also accepts evolution because how can man be so great and unique as a spirit all by himself?

It may be only chimps though. I don't know ask him.


So the answer is he traded Christianity in for spiritualism.
Whether he actually has a Calvinist background matters not -
but does he know what John's verse about those who left us might be saying about what he has said?

I have heard of many many people (and I am included in this) who did not remain in the same denomination they were raised in.
But it seems he says for him this is not the case.

I am genuinely interested in understanding what Granite believes and, as I have come to find out over the years, that's really hard work. Not really sure why I continue to but, like Sisyphus, I keep pushing that rock.

I suppose that the reason I still do is that every time I do I get a little more information than the last time ...


... He's such a tease ...

[fzappa13]

Originally Posted by Lost Comet

You never heard of Frank Zappa??!

[Granite]

You said there didn't seem to be any Christians who truly followed Christ, I noted the saints, and then you implied that you don't believe the historical documentation recording such people. I think I lost this one before the gates were even open.

In many cases no, I don't. When it comes to just-so stories you papists can spin a fine one.

I wonder if people will turn their focus to other groups, both secular and religious, who have a problem in this area magnitudes of order greater than the Catholic problem and are actually doing nothing about it?

What secular organization perpetuates, aids, abets, and hides child rape on a global scale? I'll wait.

Well I hope you'll one day reconsider and read some history and literature that actually represents the other side of the coin--there is plenty out there.

Been there and done that, zip. I joke that they're called apologists for a reason: they have a lot to apologize about...

Even if Christianity turns out to be false, I could never objectively support the kind of animosity toward Christianity that you seem to feel is justified.

That's a battered wife trying to explain that her ex-husband wasn't a terrible guy, just a little misunderstood. Open your eyes, zip.

[Granite]

Okay, to summate, your understanding of what is around you is the result of the input of your senses and this has led you to embrace the notions of evolution and, possibly multiverse theory and to reject christianity ...

Yeah. Why do you insist on trying to make this out to be so complicated? Why do you continue to try to read the tea leaves or between the lines? I'm not hiding anything, zappa. When I can understand your questions, I answer them. When you're a little fuzzy, I let you know. What's the big mystery here? I take the world in through my senses and evolution seems to make sense. If you can make that into something esoteric, knock yourself out.

And this was offered in response to my inquiry as to how you came to be.

A silly (and awkwardly phrased) question deserves a silly answer. That any of us are here at all is a miracle. We're the product of eons of chance, luck, and coincidence. Does that suit you any better?

... and this in response to my inquiry as to the purpose of all this ...

Your problem, zappa, isn't that that I'm avoiding your questions. You just don't seem to care for my answers. If that's the case, stop asking me.

Evidently you have embraced evolutionary theory...

You people are really something. "Embraced" it, have I? Yes, as much as I embrace the reality of the train I rode to NYC in June. In other words, it's a matter of fact and simple enough fact of life. I don't think of myself as an evolutionist, zappa. I think of myself as a guy smart enough to know good hard science when he sees it.

...and are flirting with the notion of Multiverse theory...

Quantum physicists "flirt" with it, zappa. I've read several works on the subject and it's incredibly intriguing.

Your attitude's getting real boring. If you don't like my answers, do us both a favor and stop asking me questions.