[voltaire]

I have heard many of you express this sentiment. Do you think the subject has no bearing on the gospel whatsoever? Is there a reason to believe in God if the universe was a purely natural act with no intervention or planning? To top it off, why believe in God if you feel the bible is the work of men and does not contain absolute truth?

[The Barbarian]

I have heard many of you express this sentiment. Do you think the subject has no bearing on the gospel whatsoever?

True. God doesn't care if you believe He created the Earth His way or yours.

Is there a reason to believe in God if the universe was a purely natural act with no intervention or planning?

The Universe was created ex nihilo. Everything else was done by nature. And of course, if you recognize that no planning was involved, you accept God as the omnipotent Creator, rather than a "designer" demiurge, or maybe a space alien.

To top it off, why believe in God if you feel the bible is the work of men and does not contain absolute truth?

I think YE creationists reject Genesis by imagining that it doesn't really mean what it says. I don't think they reject it as the work of men.

[sky.]

If a person doesn't believe that God created the earth the way it states in the Bible then there is no Garden of Eden so there is no Adam in the garden and there is no sin that was imputed on to man. Then the whole idea of sin and a Saviour has no meaning.

[voltaire]

Originally Posted by sky.

If a person doesn't believe that God created the earth the way it states in the Bible then there is no Garden of Eden so there is no Adam in the garden and there is no sin that was imputed on to man. Then the whole idea of sin and a Saviour has no meaning.

This is exactly what I was driving at.

[voltaire]

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

True. God doesn't care if you believe He created the Earth His way or yours.

What is true? God cares if you believe his clear words.

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

The Universe was created ex nihilo. Everything else was done by nature.

Why believe he started it and didn't finish it?

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

And of course, if you recognize that no planning was involved, you accept God as the omnipotent Creator, rather than a "designer" demiurge, or maybe a space alien.

It is exactly the opposite. If you recognize that God's mind and plans were in every detail, then you accept God as the omnipotent creator. A space alien is quite a bizzare description of an omnipotent creator. I don't know the meaning you pour into "designer" seeing as you are a word manipulator, but a God who thought every detail of how his creation came into being was good because it all happened according to his will and not through chance and poor adaptions that lead to suffering in many intermediates, and in which no death was needed, is my idea of an omnipotent God and not a space alien.

Originally Posted by The Barbarian

I think YE creationists reject Genesis by imagining that it doesn't really mean what it says. I don't think they reject it as the work of men.

YE creationists fully accept Genesis by taking the bible at it's word and not making up meanings that are convenient. They accept it as the word of God and fight against all others like yourself who don't like the message and therefore make a laughingstock out of it.

[DaveDodo007]

Originally Posted by sky.

If a person doesn't believe that God created the earth the way it states in the Bible then there is no Garden of Eden so there is no Adam in the garden and there is no sin that was imputed on to man. Then the whole idea of sin and a Saviour has no meaning.

News flash for you, Christianity is and always has been the minority world view. Two thirds of the world have not heard of your God or Jesus, those that have reject such a childish notion which fails to encompass the human condition. The trouble with Christianity (and also Islam) is it wants some arrested development of peoples feeling to submit to it's teachings. These are always enforced through brutal means. If your beliefs were true then it would be only a matter of exposing people to them but we all know this is not the case. Without the threat of burning people at the stake then we are free to think that you are a bunch of delusional loons.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by DaveDodo 007

News flash for you, Christianity is and always has been the minority world view. Two thirds of the world have not heard of your God or Jesus, those that have reject such a childish notion which fails to encompass the human condition. The trouble with Christianity (and also Islam) is it wants some arrested development of peoples feeling to submit to it's teachings. These are always enforced through brutal means. If your beliefs were true then it would be only a matter of exposing people to them but we all know this is not the case. Without the threat of burning people at the stake then we are free to think that you are a bunch of delusional loons.

The only thing is that before I even ever heard about creationism or evolution or God or the Bible I knew what sin was.

[Sealeaf]

Originally Posted by voltaire

I have heard many of you express this sentiment. Do you think the subject has no bearing on the gospel whatsoever? Is there a reason to believe in God if the universe was a purely natural act with no intervention or planning? To top it off, why believe in God if you feel the bible is the work of men and does not contain absolute truth?

You are a Christian if you believe in and trust the saving power of Jesus Christ. Period.
The bible is not mentioned in that definition because it is not needed. There were Christians before the Bible was put together. It is a handy memory aid to the people of God, and that's all. It is not magically protected against error, as demonstrated by the frequent translation errors and misinterpretations. We believe that the various works in it were inspired by God but written by men. "Inspired" means just the same thing when you are talking about a section of the bible and when you are talking about a secular work. It means the writer was blessed with genius and perhaps had a brilliant insight that may have been the gift of a greater power, but does not mean he is not to be credited with doing his own work. It does not mean "dictated".

The Bible is fine as a human work. We judge the kind of truth in each part of it the way we judge the truth of any other book. We use good, hard headed, scholarship. That is hard work and is the business of experts in the field. To declare that it is all absolutely magically true in what ever way we happen to understand it is at best, lazy, sloppy, scholarship. At worst it just plain dishonest.

Believing in evolution does not mean you necessarily believe God did not plan and cannot intervene in the universe. You just believe in a God who plans much deeper and can refrain from intervention because to intervene is counter to His plan. It means you see the universe as a work in progress not a finished creation.

It also means you have a realistic opinion of your self and your place in the scheme of things. Humanity is not the pinnacle of creation, just the current leading edge of a developing process. The best is yet to come.

[DaveDodo007]

Originally Posted by sky.

The only thing is that before I even ever heard about creationism or evolution or God or the Bible I knew what sin was.

Indoctrination. Please break free of it as it will give me hope for all mankind.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by DaveDodo007

Indoctrination. Please break free of it as it will give me hope for all mankind.

So does "indoctrination" seem like a sin to you?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
True. God doesn't care if you believe He created the Earth His way or yours.

What is true?

YE creationists deny God's word as to the way He created life. And yet it's not a salvation issue.

Barbarian observes:
The Universe was created ex nihilo. Everything else was done by nature.

Why believe he started it and didn't finish it?

He did. You just don't approve of the way He did it.

Barbarian observes:
And of course, if you recognize that no planning was involved, you accept God as the omnipotent Creator, rather than a "designer" demiurge, or maybe a space alien.

It is exactly the opposite.

Nope. God is omnipotent. To demote Him to a being that must figure out things is at very least, disrespectful.

A space alien is quite a bizzare description of an omnipotent creator.

No kidding. But that's the god of the IDers. Or at least that's what they say he might be.

I don't know the meaning you pour into "designer" seeing as you are a word manipulator, but a God who thought every detail of how his creation came into being was good because it all happened according to his will and not through chance and poor adaptions that lead to suffering in many intermediates, and in which no death was needed, is my idea of an omnipotent God and not a space alien.

As St. Thomas Aquinas noted, God is able to realize His divine providence by necessity or by contingency. Those who deny Him this capability have denied His role as almighty Creator.

Barbarian observes:
I think YE creationists reject Genesis by imagining that it doesn't really mean what it says. I don't think they reject it as the work of men.

YE creationists fully accept Genesis

Nope. The YE doctrine of "life ex nihilo" denies God's word in Genesis. Life was created from existing creation, not ex nihilo.

If you want to accept the Bible, accept all of it, without YE reservations.

[Stripe]

"At the end of day 6 God pronounced his finished creation as very good. If evolution were true , would Adam and Eve have been standing on a fossil graveyard of death and struggle over millions of years that God called good. The Bible describes death as the last enemy to be destroyed."

-source.

[PyramidHead]

I love Genesis, it's one of my favorite books in the Bible. I think it's very intense to think about why the Tree of Knowledge is what caused the downfall of humanity, and how God interacts with His creations. Although I don't believe, I think a lot of good can come from thinking about the text metaphorically; it is a very intense brain exercise. For that reason, I think that a literal interpenetration of Genesis deprives one of how deep it can actually go.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by DaveDodo007

Without the threat of burning people at the stake then we are free to think that you are a bunch of delusional loons.

Actually, I am pretty sure people thought all sorts of crazy things back then too.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by voltaire

Do you think the subject has no bearing on the gospel whatsoever?

I think most Christians realize this at least tacitly. But, if they can convince themselves at least that the theory of evolution is flawed, that is a more direct refutation of atheism without getting into any convoluted debates over the problem of evil or how God's existence is evident even though he is not detectable to our senses as is material.