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Krsto Krsto is offline
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October 26th, 2011, 02:03 PM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
Right and wrong does not come from God's will. God can not just make up what is right and wrong. Right and wrong are self-evident based on the nature of reality (God, people, etc). The knowledge of right and wrong originates in God's intelligence, not His will. "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" and "it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things"
God's choice of method for us to receive eternal life is not a matter of choosing the only morally correct one out of millions of possibilities so I don't really see how your argument here even relates to our discussion.





Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.

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October 26th, 2011, 02:10 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
For the record, it appears that people don't like to address these posts of mine. Well Krusty did in PM to the most pertinent, but everyone else ran.

I'm really curious to see the argument for Christ's blood overpower God's hand and forces forgiveness.

I contend Christ forgives based on Grace, not blood, and that you get Grace through faith, not sacrifice, and that faith is merely trusting God to do what He said He'd do.
Exactly. Doesn't Abraham prove that to us? He was justified by faith. Faith in what? Faith that God would do what he said he would do, which was to give him as many descendants as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand at the beach, even though he was being told to stab the son through whom all this would come.





Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.

Courtesy of Desert Reign
   
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October 26th, 2011, 05:58 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
Originally Posted by IXOYE
So, you agree, the blood of Christ isn't what results in forgiveness of sins.



Wait, is this right? The blood of Christ doesn't literally cause God to forgive us? Or did you mean it the other way.

Sigh, sorry, but with you and real thinking, clarity is important. And I'm apparently half drunk or something today.
Yeah I can't figure out if we disagree or what about. You seem to think I was saying Jesus' death could force God to forgive us? I never said meant anything like that. Sorry if i'm not explaining my beliefs very well. I said the decision to offer forgiveness to us forced God to have to provide His son as our atonement. That is a serious decision. It was God's choice, but He could not just forgive and do nothing to uphold the law. He could not set aside retributive justice (punishing the criminal) without upholding public justice (doing something equally or more effective than punishment would have been) through the Lord's atonement.

It's not like the atonement tricks God into having to forgive us or anything. I can't figure out where you're coming from. It is not like the Narnian "deep magic" from the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe when they sacrificed Aslan. God had to do something to make it morally ok that He was forgiving so many criminals. When the right time came He gave His son to make it ok that He had been (and continues to be) so forgiving. It was God's love and mercy that initiated the sacrifice. It was not like the Lord's atonement was god's way of letting our His personal anger or anything like that. I don't know if any of this helps.





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Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
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October 26th, 2011, 06:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
God's choice of method for us to receive eternal life is not a matter of choosing the only morally correct one out of millions of possibilities so I don't really see how your argument here even relates to our discussion.
You think He sacrificed His son without it being absolutely necessary?? If so, I hope you don't have children!





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 26th, 2011, 06:08 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
Logic only is logical within the environment of observations.

It's logical to us if you hold a glass out, and release it, it will hit the floor.

In a place with no gravity, that is no longer logical.

God is in a place beyond where our tennets for logic are founded.

So, God may be logical to God, but His ways are beyond our kin.
There is no "logical to you" vs "logical to me" or "logical to God" - logic is logic, like truth is truth. A contradiction is a contradiction no matter who is thinking about it. A proposition means what it means no matter who is thinking of it. Our logic is the same as God's logic because God gave us the only kind of logic there is, His. anything else would not be logic but insanity.

If there is no gravity then it is logic for things not to fall. You reason based on wrong ideas and get the wrong answers, but it doesn't mean logic is broken, it just means you started with the wrong ideas - logic still works. Put junk in - get junk out. Put good stuff in - get good stuff out. It's logical as long as you aren't being contradictory.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 26th, 2011, 08:23 PM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
You think He sacrificed His son without it being absolutely necessary?? If so, I hope you don't have children!
Since you haven't provided any reason, scriptural or otherwise, that I must conclude that God giving his son was his only option, then there is no reason to believe differently than what I believe. It's not like he was going to lose his son forever, as the term "sacrifice" usually implies. The bible says he gave his son, to be mistreated by the very ones he came to redeem.





Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.

Courtesy of Desert Reign
   
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October 26th, 2011, 09:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
Since you haven't provided any reason, scriptural or otherwise, that I must conclude that God giving his son was his only option, then there is no reason to believe differently than what I believe. It's not like he was going to lose his son forever, as the term "sacrifice" usually implies. The bible says he gave his son, to be mistreated by the very ones he came to redeem.
Krsto. Do good fathers have their sons stripped naked and their flesh ripped off of them without it even being necessary?



ELOI!!

ELOI!!!!!!

LAMA SABACHTHANI?!!!!!


Son this isn't necessary, I just wanted it???

AH!! Krsto why aren't you begging God to help you admit that it was necessary?? Because it is so bad what happened to the Lord that it might prove you deserve hell? You already know you deserve hell whether you admit it or not. Sin dethrones God! Eye for an eye. Hell for spitting on your Creator! Don't reject the cross of the Lord. It is not the historical fact of it that saves us but what it reveals about God's character and His attitude toward sin. If you can't have faith in God's attitude toward sin as shown in the shredded flesh and violently punctured body of the infinitely honorable and precious Lord Jesus then there is no way you can be right with God or honest with yourself. If you can't admit that nonexistence would be way to good for a filthy wicked sinner like yourself (and myself too you hell-deserving sinner) then you must not fear God or care about anyone except maybe in your mind.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 26th, 2011, 09:33 PM

nobody seems to be playing the Joker card? where's satan while Gods sacrifcing himself?

An what about the eternal punishment for them who are his follows, Isn't that what all strive to do.. everybody wants to save everyone else from satan an the eternal death? isn't that what the whole things about??? that last sacrifice made no ground.

yet it seems the undertow is.. God is SACRIFICING HIMSELF/HIS son to buy back his people..as talked about in the OT. why should the all powerfull God needs to do such a thing? an enter an agreement as if there is some sort of partnership happening with the Father of lies- who has convinced God that he is ruling the vessles that God created souls for?

You might Have two very confusing inqires happening here? an its not lightly to be netrilized without a little extra thought.





Just tell me what you want me to criticize! I want you to be happy<.

Last edited by Charity; October 26th, 2011 at 09:53 PM..
   
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October 26th, 2011, 09:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Charity View Post
nobody seems to be playing the Joker card? where's satan while Gods sacrifcing himself?

An what about the eternal punishment for them who are his follows, Isn't that what all strive to do.. everybody wants to save everyone else from satan?

yet it seems the undertow is.. God is SACRIFICING HIMSELF to bye his people back..as talked about in the OT

You Have two very confusing inqires happening here? an its not lightly to be netrilized without a little extra thought.
Are you talking about the ransom metaphor?





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 26th, 2011, 10:11 PM

Yes God Bought Satans Shares in the company, an the shares are still the same.floating in eternity still in danger of being consumened.





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October 27th, 2011, 09:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
Exactly. Doesn't Abraham prove that to us? He was justified by faith. Faith in what? Faith that God would do what he said he would do, which was to give him as many descendants as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand at the beach, even though he was being told to stab the son through whom all this would come.
Ummm yeah. Sounds familiar.

If Jesus blood was that powerful to control God, then they should have saved some in a vial and held God hostage for something.



   
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October 27th, 2011, 09:49 AM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
Yeah I can't figure out if we disagree or what about. You seem to think I was saying Jesus' death could force God to forgive us? I never said meant anything like that. Sorry if i'm not explaining my beliefs very well. I said the decision to offer forgiveness to us forced God to have to provide His son as our atonement. That is a serious decision. It was God's choice, but He could not just forgive and do nothing to uphold the law. He could not set aside retributive justice (punishing the criminal) without upholding public justice (doing something equally or more effective than punishment would have been) through the Lord's atonement.

It's not like the atonement tricks God into having to forgive us or anything. I can't figure out where you're coming from. It is not like the Narnian "deep magic" from the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe when they sacrificed Aslan. God had to do something to make it morally ok that He was forgiving so many criminals. When the right time came He gave His son to make it ok that He had been (and continues to be) so forgiving. It was God's love and mercy that initiated the sacrifice. It was not like the Lord's atonement was god's way of letting our His personal anger or anything like that. I don't know if any of this helps.
Ok, the kicker for me is the phrase, "forced God". Other than that we seem to be mostly together.

I get jaded by other people's comments and start assuming the whole world is together in their thoughts and I'm the lone stranger. Errr ranger.

Which is usually but not always the case.



   
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October 27th, 2011, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
There is no "logical to you" vs "logical to me" or "logical to God" - logic is logic, like truth is truth. A contradiction is a contradiction no matter who is thinking about it. A proposition means what it means no matter who is thinking of it. Our logic is the same as God's logic because God gave us the only kind of logic there is, His. anything else would not be logic but insanity.

If there is no gravity then it is logic for things not to fall. You reason based on wrong ideas and get the wrong answers, but it doesn't mean logic is broken, it just means you started with the wrong ideas - logic still works. Put junk in - get junk out. Put good stuff in - get good stuff out. It's logical as long as you aren't being contradictory.
The point is, God existed before CREATION. So His thinking, environments, reasoning is different for different reasons and realizations.

It's logical for a 14th century ship builder to take a sword and watch it sink in the lake. Then take wood and watch it float. Then conclude that an iron boat would sink in the water. That's very logical.
But based on new awarenesses that logic goes away.

With God, If He existed before time, and creation, and matter, then being outside of time, HIS perception is so much more different than ours, what is logical to Him, won't be to us.

For example, when is it right to commit Genocide? What is logical about that?

God saw the logic.



   
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October 27th, 2011, 10:06 AM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
Krsto. Do good fathers have their sons stripped naked and their flesh ripped off of them without it even being necessary?
Is God so unpowerful He couldn't save His son AND FORGIVE SINS?

I stick with omnipotent God.

Would a good KING sacrifice His son for the Kingdom?



   
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October 27th, 2011, 10:11 AM

Consider this, God forgave sins before His son's sacrifice.

It wasn't about the blood.

It was about making us believe we could come HOME!

Why did sin separate man from God?

IT DIDN'T! Remember after Adam sinned God sought him out to rectify the sins.

The prodigal son came home filthy, ritually unclean, the clean father embraced and feasted Him. That's what God is waiting for. Man is shamed by His sins, God tries to show, it's ok, just come home.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Charity View Post
nobody seems to be playing the Joker card? where's satan while Gods sacrifcing himself?

An what about the eternal punishment for them who are his follows, Isn't that what all strive to do.. everybody wants to save everyone else from satan an the eternal death? isn't that what the whole things about??? that last sacrifice made no ground.

yet it seems the undertow is.. God is SACRIFICING HIMSELF/HIS son to buy back his people..as talked about in the OT. why should the all powerfull God needs to do such a thing? an enter an agreement as if there is some sort of partnership happening with the Father of lies- who has convinced God that he is ruling the vessles that God created souls for?

You might Have two very confusing inqires happening here? an its not lightly to be netrilized without a little extra thought.



   
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