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Krsto Krsto is offline
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October 27th, 2011, 12:21 PM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
Krsto. Do good fathers have their sons stripped naked and their flesh ripped off of them without it even being necessary?

ELOI!!

ELOI!!!!!!

LAMA SABACHTHANI?!!!!!


Son this isn't necessary, I just wanted it???

AH!! Krsto why aren't you begging God to help you admit that it was necessary?? Because it is so bad what happened to the Lord that it might prove you deserve hell? You already know you deserve hell whether you admit it or not. Sin dethrones God! Eye for an eye. Hell for spitting on your Creator! Don't reject the cross of the Lord. It is not the historical fact of it that saves us but what it reveals about God's character and His attitude toward sin. If you can't have faith in God's attitude toward sin as shown in the shredded flesh and violently punctured body of the infinitely honorable and precious Lord Jesus then there is no way you can be right with God or honest with yourself. If you can't admit that nonexistence would be way to good for a filthy wicked sinner like yourself (and myself too you hell-deserving sinner) then you must not fear God or care about anyone except maybe in your mind.
Good grief naatmi. Our Father in heaven has allowed his children to go through far more than Jesus went through, and he asks us who are going through trials and suffering at the hands of God haters to consider them but light and momentary compared to the glory that we shall experience on the other side. I'm sure Jesus felt the same way about his passion and he's the one who had to go through it, not God (though it could be argued that at some point, such as when he felt abandoned, he might not have had assurance it would all turn out for the better.)

You keep pointing to Jesus' passion as evidence of the terribleness of sin and proof positive that your sin and mine is so bad that we deserve eternal conscious torment, but your math is off. By a country mile. One man, suffers for one day, so justice is served and not "winked at," for billions of people, whos justice if served would entail an eternity of suffering.

You do the math.

It's obvious the crucifiction is not about retributive justice.

It's also not about maintaining law and order as would be the case when a civil magistrate doesn't just give everybody a get out of jail free card. Nobody ever uses Jesus as an example to keep people in line. Nobody in the bible ever says "Remember Jesus suffering on the cross? That's going to be your sad state of affairs if you don't repent and obey God's law." Neither do they say, "Remeber Jesus suffering on the cross? That's just a small, finite example of your sad state of affairs for all eternity if you don't repent and obey God's law."

The bible teaches the wages of sin is death. Not torture. Not eternal suffering. Not a day of torture for someone else so we don't have to be either tortured for a time in this life or suffer for all eternity.

I gotta say naatmi, you have been scratching for justification of your doctrine and you have been very creative. I can appreciate out-of-box thinking but ultimately your rationale has fallen short.





Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.

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October 27th, 2011, 12:27 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post

The prodigal son came home filthy, ritually unclean, the clean father embraced and feasted Him. That's what God is waiting for. Man is shamed by His sins, God tries to show, it's ok, just come home.


Ya know Bro., for a Lone Stranger you sure come up with some gems.

I love how the parables just cut through all the legalistic, pharisaical, lawyeristic rationalizations and show the heart of our heavenly Father.

Thank you sir.





Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007

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October 27th, 2011, 04:37 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
Ok, the kicker for me is the phrase, "forced God". Other than that we seem to be mostly together.

I get jaded by other people's comments and start assuming the whole world is together in their thoughts and I'm the lone stranger. Errr ranger.

Which is usually but not always the case.


Yeah. No one forces God.

Even when I say "God had to" such and such, I don't mean anyone else made Him do it, I just mean God knew it was the right thing to do and no one will stop Him from doing the right thing.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
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October 27th, 2011, 06:00 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
The point is, God existed before CREATION. So His thinking, environments, reasoning is different for different reasons and realizations.

It's logical for a 14th century ship builder to take a sword and watch it sink in the lake. Then take wood and watch it float. Then conclude that an iron boat would sink in the water. That's very logical.
But based on new awarenesses that logic goes away.

With God, If He existed before time, and creation, and matter, then being outside of time, HIS perception is so much more different than ours, what is logical to Him, won't be to us.

For example, when is it right to commit Genocide? What is logical about that?

God saw the logic.
If He fully explained it to us then it would make perfect sense to us.

1 + 1 always = 2 before and after creation, no matter who you are.

A valid categorical syllogism is valid regardless of whose mind processes it, or even a computer. and a contradiction is always a contradiction. Are you familiar with the difference between the truth of a logical argument and the logical validity of an argument? I think the difference might be causing a misunderstanding here.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 27th, 2011, 06:20 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
Is God so unpowerful He couldn't save His son AND FORGIVE SINS?
It is not a matter of power. When Jesus said "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me", He did not mean that it might actually be physically impossible or something. Jesus even said "do you think that I couldn’t ask my Father, and he would even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?" The only thing that made it impossible was God's commitment to redeem us. It was God's choice to offer forgiveness that made it so the only right thing for Him to do was to go to such an extreme.

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Would a good KING sacrifice His son for the Kingdom?
Jesus sacrifice was by His own consent ("do you think that I couldn’t ask my Father, and he would even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?"). A good king would not murder an innocent person. But a good person has permission to give their life for others.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 28th, 2011, 08:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Krsto View Post
Good grief naatmi. Our Father in heaven has allowed his children to go through far more than Jesus went through, and he asks us who are going through trials and suffering at the hands of God haters to consider them but light and momentary compared to the glory that we shall experience on the other side. I'm sure Jesus felt the same way about his passion and he's the one who had to go through it, not God (though it could be argued that at some point, such as when he felt abandoned, he might not have had assurance it would all turn out for the better.)

You keep pointing to Jesus' passion as evidence of the terribleness of sin and proof positive that your sin and mine is so bad that we deserve eternal conscious torment, but your math is off. By a country mile. One man, suffers for one day, so justice is served and not "winked at," for billions of people, whos justice if served would entail an eternity of suffering.

You do the math.
math.. You think you can calculate John 3:16 You have a deplorably shallow regard for what the Lord did for us. What has caused your heart to become so dull?

Quote:
It's obvious the crucifiction is not about retributive justice.
Retributive justice is the punishment of the transgressor. The Lord's atonement was a substitute for (instead of) retributive justice. Retributive justice has been justifiably set aside when people repent because of the atonement.

Quote:
It's also not about maintaining law and order as would be the case when a civil magistrate doesn't just give everybody a get out of jail free card.
"to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past"
"To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just"

Quote:
Nobody ever uses Jesus as an example to keep people in line.
It's a given. You're a straight up blasphemer if you think God would put His son through that without it being absolutely necessary. Eye for an eye. God wouldn't command that unless it was absolutely necessary either. If you don't believe Moses then you won't believe the Lord either. People think the atonement was magic or something. They're taught it was to cure Augustinian original sin.

"If ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Quote:
Nobody in the bible ever says "Remember Jesus suffering on the cross? That's going to be your sad state of affairs if you don't repent and obey God's law." Neither do they say, "Remeber Jesus suffering on the cross? That's just a small, finite example of your sad state of affairs for all eternity if you don't repent and obey God's law."
It's a given. Eye for an eye. The fear of God is the beginning of knowledge.

Quote:
The bible teaches the wages of sin is death. Not torture. Not eternal suffering.
You're a liberal! Eye for an eye.

Quote:
Not a day of torture for someone else so we don't have to be either tortured for a time in this life or suffer for all eternity.
You think Jesus Christ was just some guy. "For God so loved the world that whatever he apparently gave some guy that whoever is a liberal can decorate their numb presumptuousness with some creative doctrine even though it wasn't necessary" - thanks some guy, now not fearing God feels more religious and special.

You're amazing, you say the atonement was just "so what" "big deal" "everyone has bad days" when we're talking about our perfect innocent humble Creator suffering for His evil enemies, but if it's wicked sinners then "oh my!" "oh no! hell is much too harsh!" "we wouldn't want them to suffer too much!" - whose side are you on then?

Liberals always pity the guilty and disregard the innocent.

God's mercy is not for you until you admit you are a hell-deserving sinner (unless you never sinned, but I'd say your stance in this thread proves otherwise).



   
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October 28th, 2011, 11:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Krsto View Post


Ya know Bro., for a Lone Stranger you sure come up with some gems.

I love how the parables just cut through all the legalistic, pharisaical, lawyeristic rationalizations and show the heart of our heavenly Father.

Thank you sir.
Heterodoxy rules.

Just ask Jesus or Paul.

Ever notice Heterodoxy is declared by MAN?

Anyway, stop this silliness. I'm supposed to fight with you. You take all the fun out of things doing this crap.
My spiritual gift of agitation doesn't doesn't work if I'm not agitating something. :|



   
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October 28th, 2011, 11:25 AM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post


Yeah. No one forces God.

Even when I say "God had to" such and such, I don't mean anyone else made Him do it, I just mean God knew it was the right thing to do and no one will stop Him from doing the right thing.
Well, see? Then we probably agree on most of this then. That phrase sets me off because MOST folks really think Jesus' Blood forced God's Hand.

It cheapens His death and is insulting to me.



   
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October 28th, 2011, 11:29 AM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
If He fully explained it to us then it would make perfect sense to us.

1 + 1 always = 2 before and after creation, no matter who you are.

A valid categorical syllogism is valid regardless of whose mind processes it, or even a computer. and a contradiction is always a contradiction. Are you familiar with the difference between the truth of a logical argument and the logical validity of an argument? I think the difference might be causing a misunderstanding here.
What one is capable of realizing is limited by one's experience. Iron boats won't float is logical as Iron sinks and wood floats. However it's not right.

Picture a 2 dimensional pair of entites, we'll name them 1 and 2.

------1-----------2------------

They can't imagine up, down, left or right. It's beyond their experiential comprehensive abilities. God existed in a reality as far beyond our comprehension as our existance is from 1 or 2 comprehending it.

1 can walk up to 2, but not pass 2. Same with 2 to 1. Their reality is defined within what is in front of them, and behind them.



   
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October 28th, 2011, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
It is not a matter of power. When Jesus said "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me", He did not mean that it might actually be physically impossible or something. Jesus even said "do you think that I couldn’t ask my Father, and he would even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?" The only thing that made it impossible was God's commitment to redeem us. It was God's choice to offer forgiveness that made it so the only right thing for Him to do was to go to such an extreme.

Jesus sacrifice was by His own consent ("do you think that I couldn’t ask my Father, and he would even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?"). A good king would not murder an innocent person. But a good person has permission to give their life for others.

I think we are good on this, the above pretty well took care of it for me.



   
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October 28th, 2011, 06:22 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
Well, see? Then we probably agree on most of this then. That phrase sets me off because MOST folks really think Jesus' Blood forced God's Hand.

It cheapens His death and is insulting to me.
I never heard anyone say it that way but I would disagree as well. Why would God's hand need to be forced if He is already ready to forgive?? All I can guess is that people who say you don't need to obey God want to assure themselves by saying the atonement prevents God from judging them even though they continue in sin. In my experience, an excuse for sin is really the underlying cause of false doctrines.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 28th, 2011, 06:37 PM

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Originally Posted by IXOYE View Post
What one is capable of realizing is limited by one's experience. Iron boats won't float is logical as Iron sinks and wood floats. However it's not right.

Picture a 2 dimensional pair of entites, we'll name them 1 and 2.

------1-----------2------------

They can't imagine up, down, left or right. It's beyond their experiential comprehensive abilities. God existed in a reality as far beyond our comprehension as our existance is from 1 or 2 comprehending it.

1 can walk up to 2, but not pass 2. Same with 2 to 1. Their reality is defined within what is in front of them, and behind them.
This reminds me of Stephen Hawking stuff I read when I was little.

Regarding logic: Are you familiar with the difference between the truth (or soundness) of a logical argument and the logical validity of an argument? I think that it is impossible to discuss logic without some basic agreement on the nature of logic and a distinction between truth or soundness and logical validity.

Knowledge is like a mental reflection of reality. Since reality can not "contradict" itself, true knowledge can never contradict itself either, or it would no longer reflect reality. In reality there can not be things that "are" and "are not" simultaneously. That is totally meaningless.

God has way more knowledge than we can imagine. But since knowledge reflects reality and reality does not contradict itself, we can be certain that God's knowledge does not contradict itself either. God's law of non-contradiction in His own mind is the same law He put into our mind so that we could have accurate knowledge of reality and not conclude totally whacked out things that contradict themselves.





We love him, because he first loved us 1Joh 4:19
If you do good will you not be accepted? Gen 4:7
Do good - You'll be justified Rom 2:13
Glory, honor, and peace if you do good Rom 2:10
Get glory, honor, and immortality by doing good Rom 2:7
Do good - get the right to the tree of life Rev 22:14
   
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October 29th, 2011, 04:45 PM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
I never heard anyone say it that way but I would disagree as well. Why would God's hand need to be forced if He is already ready to forgive?? All I can guess is that people who say you don't need to obey God want to assure themselves by saying the atonement prevents God from judging them even though they continue in sin. In my experience, an excuse for sin is really the underlying cause of false doctrines.
They don't have to say it that way. The minute someone proclaims ONLY HIS BLOOD CAN SAVE. They have irrevocably assumed that position as a given to their theology.



   
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October 29th, 2011, 04:55 PM

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Originally Posted by naatmi View Post
This reminds me of Stephen Hawking stuff I read when I was little.

Regarding logic: Are you familiar with the difference between the truth (or soundness) of a logical argument and the logical validity of an argument? I think that it is impossible to discuss logic without some basic agreement on the nature of logic and a distinction between truth or soundness and logical validity.

Knowledge is like a mental reflection of reality. Since reality can not "contradict" itself, true knowledge can never contradict itself either, or it would no longer reflect reality. In reality there can not be things that "are" and "are not" simultaneously. That is totally meaningless.

God has way more knowledge than we can imagine. But since knowledge reflects reality and reality does not contradict itself, we can be certain that God's knowledge does not contradict itself either. God's law of non-contradiction in His own mind is the same law He put into our mind so that we could have accurate knowledge of reality and not conclude totally whacked out things that contradict themselves.
I taught logic and debate for a semester in college. I understand the basics. What i am not getting through here is what is logical to you and me is what we have learned from our observations within creation. God doesn't exist within the creation. He has more options to his perception than we do. For example, since ahead existed before time, which existed with the first piece of matter/mass so there was something to "time" his perspective of creation must not be linear as ours is. For Him, bbeginning middle and end have no meaning. He would see all the beginnings middles and ends as both one instant and many instances. So, what makes sense to him as logical, wont to us. Like genocide.

I think snoot of times people gwr caught up in anthropomorphisms and try to make God fit within them. When they are limited descriptions at best. Similar to analogies.



   
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October 29th, 2011, 05:00 PM

Oh yeah, if hawking is right with his theories, then 1 plus 1 is not two.

A recent experiment in one of the super commiserate got something somewhere before it left. Nor rather it surpassed the speed of light. B according to hawking's works that means for that briefest of instants 1 plus 0 equaled 2. Math is math because God said so. Would math exist before God or creation? Or do you think math as we know it, world because that is how God created things, and we have learned the use of that part.



   
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