By whose authority? That is the argument ^. Paul's argument is based on who should legally have the authority to regulate abortion.
Yes, he cares more about the level of authority than abortion. He siad he'd be against a federal law banning abortion.
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Let's say you lived in a country in which there is a federal ban on abortion. The UN comes along and says "all law restricting abortion are hereby null and void". Similarly, Paul is declaring that the authority should rightfully be in the hands of each state. The argument at this point says nothing about abortion. This argument is simply about authority.
Yes, he'd like each state to decide if they want abortion legal or not. He wants states to have the ability to make abortion legal. That's pro-choice by definition. Someone pro-life wouldn't want anyone to have the possible choice of making abortion legal.
I dont care what level of authority its at, it should be illegal at every level. What's next for Paul, if a state makes abortion legal he'll argue for county rights?
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Paul's reintroduction of the bill was introduced the same year as the We the People Act, which would have removed “any claim based upon the right of privacy, including any such claim related to any issue of ... reproduction” from federal court jurisdiction.
Combine the above legislation with the Sanctity of Life Act
The Sanctity of Life Act would have defined human life and legal personhood (specifically, natural personhood) as beginning at conception
All of the various state laws prohibiting abortion would no longer be struck down by federal courts.
Yes, it brilliantly protects the rights of the states to keep abortion legal if they want, making it so that the Supreme Court cannot review those laws.
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What is your strategy?
To make abortion illegal at every level, to focus on making abortion illegal and not at what level it should be illegal, to not leave anyone the choice to keeping abortion legal.
"I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
"Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot
The only thing I can figure is that many pro-life evangelicals don't favor small government and are basically authoritarians.
Ron Paul isn't an authoritarian, or a statist, and since he doesn't favor an iron-fisted approach, evangelicals confuse him with some kind of stealth pro-choicer.
It's an obtuse, clueless mistake to make, but one they keep on repeating.
Uh yes, concerning murder I favor an authoritarian approach. Maybe I'm too iron-fisted.
Paul isnt a stealth pro-choicer, he's an open pro-choicer. Look up the word choice sometime. Paul wants states to each decide and he wants their choice protected from the Supreme Court.
"I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
"Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot
Slogan/motto:
Abortion - "the slaughter which out-herods Herod." Dr. O. C. Turner (1870)
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November 23rd, 2011, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by drbrumley
That's a bunch of mularky.
Do states have the right to legalize slavery, or not? Do states have the right to legalize abortion, or not?
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Good God! Why is this so hard for you people to understand? We agree, and I'm sure Ron Paul agrees.
Yes, God is Good!
I’m not sure who “you people” are but if we agree, I would say at least you and I understand. I hope you’re right about Ron Paul.
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That's the issue. The state i.e. Florida or the federal Government itself thinks it is the one who gives or grants us rights.
So where does it end? Any individual mother may herself think she is the one who gives or grants her unborn child rights. Where, when, how is it appropriate for someone to step in and ensure God given rights?
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Your ilk back in years past decided we needed to have a Federal Government who was created by the states to be subserviant to the states themselves. The Feds usurped that power and now your stuck.
I’m not sure who “your ilk” is but certainly you agree that ANY abuse of power is anathema?
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You have no plan. Do you? Same ole mindless stuff. At least Dr Paul has a plan to circumvent the rulers. And you hate him for it.
I’ve always thought more highly of you than this warrants...obviously I don‘t know you well. And, I admittedly don’t know Ron Paul well but if what I do understand about him is accurate, my hope is that he comes to understand the necessity of top-down authority and fight only the abuse of such. After all, to a rapist the local arresting officer is a “ruler” the rapist would like to “circumvent.”
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows...wait a minute...there’s Nietzsche!!!!!! – Kc
Life is scared until you're born...unless your mother is pro-life. - Kc
Uh yes, concerning murder I favor an authoritarian approach. Maybe I'm too iron-fisted.
Authoritarianism isn't a pick and choose ideology. The thing is, right-wing evangelicals aren't conservatives and never have been. They don't favor smaller government, either--they simply want a government that operates their way, and the bigger, the better.
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Paul isnt a stealth pro-choicer, he's an open pro-choicer.
That's a lie, simply put, and again, it takes a real particular kind of Christian to pull this routine on a fellow Christian who actually possesses integrity and has delivered newborns throughout his career.
Cannibalism at its finest. Or worst.
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
Slogan/motto:
Hands that help are holier than lips that pray.
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November 23rd, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by drbrumley
Paul's point on supporting Israel if they attack was spot on.
We don't have television here so I miss most of these things, what did he say?
I believe that the Universe is one being, all its parts are different expressions of the same energy,
and they are all in communication with each other, therefore parts of one organic whole.
This whole is in all its parts so beautiful, and is felt by me to be so intensely in earnest, that I am compelled to love it and to think of it as divine
- Robinson Jeffers
Well then, let's just wait for "God" to handle the problem..............
Waiting......................
Waiting..............
Waiting.........
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
People dont' get to decided what is right or wrong, they are absolutes. This debate just shows who isn't really on the right.
Slogan/motto:
Success is a journey, not a destination. So stop running.
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November 23rd, 2011, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Yes, he'd like each state to decide if they want abortion legal or not. He wants states to have the ability to make abortion legal. That's pro-choice by definition. Someone pro-life wouldn't want anyone to have the possible choice of making abortion legal.
But.....the Federal government would still have the choice of making it legal. Pro-choice!!!
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I dont care what level of authority its at, it should be illegal at every level. What's next for Paul, if a state makes abortion legal he'll argue for county rights?
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
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November 23rd, 2011, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick M
People dont' get to decided what is right or wrong, they are absolutes.
Is lying absolutely right or absolutely wrong?
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
But.....the Federal government would still have the choice of making it legal. Pro-choice!!!
Umm, no, he wouldn't argue for that.
Right, wouldnt it be silly for a pro-lifer to argue that the federal government has the right to decide abortion should be legal or illegal, and to argue that the supreme court can't review it.l
"I believe in Christianity, as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." C.S. Lewis
"Don't believe that there's nothing that's true, don't believe in this modern machine." Switchfoot
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
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November 23rd, 2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick M
Lying is amoral. Nice try. Bearing false witness is absolutely wrong. Telling the gestapo that Anne Frank is not here is absolutely not wrong.
Lying is not forbidden, bearing false witness is.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Slogan/motto:
“Theist and atheist: The fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name” S.B.
Reputation:
November 27th, 2011, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Yes, he cares more about the level of authority than abortion. He siad he'd be against a federal law banning abortion.
As a statement of Constitutionality, yes. This does not make him pro-choice. He just wants government to play by the rules as he understands them.
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Yes, he'd like each state to decide if they want abortion legal or not.
Or, he's like each state to have the authority to ban abortion. Legal is the status quo.
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
He wants states to have the ability to make abortion legal illegal. That's pro-choice by definition.
He is staunchly pro-life and has what would be (in my opinion) the most effective strategy aimed at restricting abortion at the state level since we all know what the law is at the federal level.
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Someone pro-life wouldn't want anyone to have the possible choice of making abortion legal.
He's not a blind idealist. We have to work within the framework of government. He realizes the uphill battle pro-lifers face and has an actual viable strategy in place. Beats the "vote Republican" mantra we've been hearing over the years.....
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
I dont care what level of authority its at, it should be illegal at every level.
Yes, should be. But how? What will make it illegal at every level?
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
Yes, it brilliantly protects the rights of the states to keep abortion legal if they want, making it so that the Supreme Court cannot review those laws.
The Supreme Court is the pro-choice gatekeeper. You wanting SC review is like wanting Iran to review the Israeli Declaration of Independence.
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Originally Posted by GuySmiley
To make abortion illegal at every level, to focus on making abortion illegal and not at what level it should be illegal, to not leave anyone the choice to keeping abortion legal.
That's just vague idealism as opposed to a strategy.
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. ~John Bertram Phillips
Slogan/motto:
The highest manifestation of life consists in this: that a being governs its own actions. A thing which is always subject to the direction of another is somewhat of a dead thing.
Reputation:
November 27th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Hes pro-life ... but he thinks it should be a state issue and he is against prosecuting people for receiving abortions.
"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark." - Stephen Hawking
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