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Post 7 Reasons to be Catholic by Dr. Peter Kreeft - November 24th, 2011, 10:56 PM

I ran across this today and I found it to be very good, which is no surprise since it comes from Peter Kreeft, a Calvinist convert to Catholicism who is now a professor of philosophy at Boston College. He often speaks and debates in favor of the pro-life position, is the co-author of the Handbook of Christian Apologetics, and gives lectures on C.S. Lewis and J.R.R Tolkien.

I know that many may glance at this thread and leave without listening to anything that Kreeft has to say. Certainly I cannot force anyone to listen to these arguments. But I do pray that you listen to at least the first video and then, if you are enticed, you plan to listen to the rest sometime in the future.

7 Reasons to be a Catholic


I went to Mass this morning to, among other things, partake in the Eucharist, or thanksgiving. It is a partaking that the Catholic Church has been celebrating for 2000 years according to Christ's words in 1 Corinthians 11:24. I am very thankful for Christ's Church and her sacraments, and I hope this talk by Dr. Kreeft opens the eyes of others to the beauty and truth contained therein.


Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so,
Benedicamus Domino!

-Hilaire Belloc



Happy Thanksgiving,
-zip





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformationís understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

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Post November 25th, 2011, 12:25 AM

Great resources, zippy. Here's another cogent and concise article by Dr. Kreeft:
"FUNDAMENTALISTS"


Gaudium de veritate,

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November 25th, 2011, 12:47 AM

I have one name, Cardinal Newman.





So, what?

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November 25th, 2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
I ran across this today and I found it to be very good, which is no surprise since it comes from Peter Kreeft, a Calvinist convert to Catholicism who is now a professor of philosophy at Boston College. He often speaks and debates in favor of the pro-life position, is the co-author of the Handbook of Christian Apologetics, and gives lectures on C.S. Lewis and J.R.R Tolkien.

I know that many may glance at this thread and leave without listening to anything that Kreeft has to say. Certainly I cannot force anyone to listen to these arguments. But I do pray that you listen to at least the first video and then, if you are enticed, you plan to listen to the rest sometime in the future.

7 Reasons to be a Catholic


I went to Mass this morning to, among other things, partake in the Eucharist, or thanksgiving. It is a partaking that the Catholic Church has been celebrating for 2000 years according to Christ's words in 1 Corinthians 11:24. I am very thankful for Christ's Church and her sacraments, and I hope this talk by Dr. Kreeft opens the eyes of others to the beauty and truth contained therein.


Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so,
Benedicamus Domino!

-Hilaire Belloc



Happy Thanksgiving,
-zip





Slow dancing in a burning room.

Don't tase me, bro!!
   
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November 25th, 2011, 07:12 AM

Thanks, zip! I'm looking forward to watching these.



   
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November 25th, 2011, 07:18 AM

ditto!





"This then is what it means to be born again of water and Spirit: just as our dying is effected in the water, our living is wrought in the Spirit. In three immersions and in an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water but from the Spirit's presence there."--St Basil the Great (ca. 350 AD)
   
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November 25th, 2011, 07:54 AM

If one is inclined to be a member of an organized Christian church, Catholicism wins on a simple choice: Catholic texts are as close as we can come to the originals, as written in Athens, Rome, and Jerusalem, by the people who were on site in those foundational areas. How many versions are there of the Bible? All of them have changes, except for the original Catholic Bible which must take the authoritative position for accurate gospels.

Dr Peter Kreeft, perhaps, makes a mistake in basing the choice between Christian denominations on an either/or decision: The Catholic church is either the Truth, or it is blasphemous and an idolator. This is an error because it leaves the state of the church in the weak hands of those who have not the education nor the intellect to judge.

Apostolic succession, as assigned by Jesus, should never be in question, for this is written in the gospels. The mistake some Catholics make is when they claim that Jesus was personally present in 33 AD when Simon-Peter confessed, thus establishing Apostolic succession for all time, and founding the Catholic church by this act. The person making such a claim is asserting that Jesus was there in spirit when Simon-Peter confessed; therefore it was Jesus who personally authorized the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church. We understand the logic but it fails the test of documented fact on the basis of Jesus being personally (bodily) not present at that foundational event.

If one is not inclined to be a member of an organized Christian church, and specifically the Catholic church, the choice must be based upon non-theism preferred rather than theism. I have known Christians who were pantheists, pandeists, and one pastor who was a deist (his Sunday School was theistic as required). These non-theistic congregation members were as devout as any theist present. This point could be debated until doomsday (probably will be, too).

I watched all five of the videos. Dr Peter Kreeft (difficult to visualize him as ever being a Calvinist) is a wonderful speaker and he made his points beautifully.



   
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November 25th, 2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted L Glines View Post
I watched all five of the videos. Dr Peter Kreeft (difficult to visualize him as ever being a Calvinist) is a wonderful speaker and he made his points beautifully.
Thanks for listening Ted I agree, Kreeft is a great speaker.

You made a lot of points, so I will focus on just one for now:

For those who have not listened to the videos, Kreeft claims that the Lord-Liar-Lunatic trilemma made famous by C.S. Lewis also applies to the Catholic Church. The main point he makes in this area is the Eucharist: Catholics are either worshipping well, or they are worshipping idols of bread and wine; not much middle ground.

Quote:
Dr Peter Kreeft, perhaps, makes a mistake in basing the choice between Christian denominations on an either/or decision: The Catholic church is either the Truth, or it is blasphemous and an idolator. This is an error because it leaves the state of the church in the weak hands of those who have not the education nor the intellect to judge.
Can you expand on this? Where does the error lie?






"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformationís understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

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November 25th, 2011, 10:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
I have one name, Cardinal Newman.
The renowned Anglican priest who eventually converted to Catholicism, noting in An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine that "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant," is indeed a good reason to be Catholic. Or at the very least he provides numerous reasons, found mostly in his deep knowledge of the early church and the Patristics, which he was strongly interested in even as an Anglican. Kreeft mentions him in his talk. I especially like Lead, Kindly Light:


Lead, Kindly Light, amidst th'encircling gloom,
Lead Thou me on!
The night is dark, and I am far from home,
Lead Thou me on!
Keep Thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene; one step enough for me.
I was not ever thus, nor prayed that Thou
Shouldst lead me on;
I loved to choose and see my path; but now
Lead Thou me on!
I loved the garish day, and, spite of fears,
Pride ruled my will. Remember not past years!
So long Thy power hath blest me, sure it still
Will lead me on.
Oíer moor and fen, oíer crag and torrent, till
The night is gone,
And with the morn those angel faces smile,
Which I have loved long since, and lost awhile!
Meantime, along the narrow rugged path,
Thyself hast trod,
Lead, Saviour, lead me home in childlike faith,
Home to my God.
To rest forever after earthly strife
In the calm light of everlasting life.








"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformationís understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

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November 25th, 2011, 10:47 AM

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Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
The renowned Anglican priest who eventually converted to Catholicism, noting in An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine that "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant," is indeed a good reason to be Catholic.
Or a fairly self serving bit of personal propaganda. That is only to say, it's the sort of thing one writes from one perspective. And one can believe, as the Church of Christ does, that its spiritual path is the intended means by which God desires us to enter into relation and spiritual growth, and be perfectly wrong on the point without being mistaken on every or any other. Else, how to resolve the conflict between that Church and your own and any other? All presumably read and interpret scripture and carry their own traditions with regard to the central truth of Christendom, have their own understanding of its history and meaning.

Quote:
Or at the very least he provides numerous reasons, found mostly in his deep knowledge of the early church and the Patristics, which he was strongly interested in even as an Anglican. Kreeft mentions him in his talk. I especially like Lead, Kindly Light:
To be fair, Anglicans are only half step removed Catholics though. An easy transition. And, given the trouble besetting the Anglican/Episcopal church, I wouldn't be surprised to see a steady exodus of traditional A/E into the ranks of a more foundationally secure Catholic church. Spong may do wonders for your slant here.





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Pro-Life


Town Quixote thread (link)
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November 25th, 2011, 11:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
Quote:
The renowned Anglican priest who eventually converted to Catholicism, noting in An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine that "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant," is indeed a good reason to be Catholic.
Or a fairly self serving bit of personal propaganda. That is only to say, it's the sort of thing one writes from one perspective. And one can believe, as the Church of Christ does, that its spiritual path is the intended means by which God desires us to enter into relation and spiritual growth, and be perfectly wrong on the point without being mistaken on every or any other. Else, how to resolve the conflict between that Church and your own and any other? All presumably read and interpret scripture and carry their own traditions with regard to the central truth of Christendom, have their own understanding of its history and meaning.
Self serving propaganda you say? John Henry Newman was a very highly respected priest and scholar in the Anglican community. A man of tremendous learning, it is said that he read the entirety of the Patristics 3-5 times in his lifetime. At the age of about 45 he had learned so much that he could no longer deny the truth of the Catholic Church. His conversion was an enormous affair. It polarized his former colleagues at Oxford and destroyed many relationships he had with his family and friends. In fact, for some 15 years Newman suffered deep depression due to this estrangement, and it was not until 1862 (at the age of 61) that he wrote his famous and spirited rejoiner to the claims of Charles Kingsly, thus becoming a public defender of the faith. So forgive me if "self-serving propaganda" seems an ignorant and foolish label to ascribe to Newman's statements in his area of expertise. As to whether history is a subjective affair, I certainly disagree, but don't take my word for it: there are some videos above on the exact topic. But we both know the story of Henry VIII and Thomas More, as well as the reasons for the Anglican break with the Church.

You are something of an Anglican/Episcopalian TH, have you ever actually read Cardinal Newman?

Quote:
To be fair, Anglicans are only half step removed Catholics though. An easy transition. And, given the trouble besetting the Anglican/Episcopal church, I wouldn't be surprised to see a steady exodus of traditional A/E into the ranks of a more foundationally secure Catholic church. Spong may do wonders for your slant here.
In 1845 it was not so concerning the problems in the Anglican/Episcopalian tradition. And we need not ask how easy it was for Newman to convert (I don't think it was easy at all, given his history), but whether his reasons are true and valid. For as Kreeft notes in part 1, in the end the only reason to believe something is because it is true.






"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformationís understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

-Falsity of OSAS
   
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November 25th, 2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zippy2006 View Post
Thanks for listening Ted I agree, Kreeft is a great speaker.

You made a lot of points, so I will focus on just one for now:

For those who have not listened to the videos, Kreeft claims that the Lord-Liar-Lunatic trilemma made famous by C.S. Lewis also applies to the Catholic Church. The main point he makes in this area is the Eucharist: Catholics are either worshipping well, or they are worshipping idols of bread and wine; not much middle ground.

Quote:
Dr Peter Kreeft, perhaps, makes a mistake in basing the choice between Christian denominations on an either/or decision: The Catholic church is either the Truth, or it is blasphemous and an idolator. This is an error because it leaves the state of the church in the weak hands of those who have not the education nor the intellect to judge.
Can you expand on this? Where does the error lie?

Sorry, I did leave that one hanging LOL

The error, in my opinion, was in using the negative "...either the Truth, or it is blasphemous..." attitude-comparison as a selling tool. It's a dead horse which has been kicked to death since those way-early days when the RCC was dividing into factions across Europe. It caused turmoil then and it will cause turmoil now. The Roman Catholic Church has no need to defend its rituals/services from those ancient and outworn attacks anymore. Apologetics is fine, but the modern Roman Catholic Church has nothing to gain by bringing up negativity from the far distant past. If I could chat with Dr. Kreeft, I would see if we could not find a suitably positive comparison/contrast to replace that moment in his speech.

In short, Dr. Kreeft was using this negative point to show contrast with the supremely positive stance of the Church, but, it is a deadly contrast to use in a public forum where attackers will pick it up and make it viral. And they surely will

That said, I would really like to hear some more from Dr. Peter Kreeft; he is a great orator.




Last edited by Ted L Glines; November 25th, 2011 at 11:43 AM.. Reason: typo
   
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November 25th, 2011, 11:46 AM

I am sympathetic toward many things Catholic. However, I cannot get passed the simple duck argument--you know, the old one that says, "if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, then it is probably a duck..."

Most of the apologetics that many Catholics engage in can be boiled down to convincing others that Catholic Christianity is not a duck. The feathers are not really feathers, the bill is not really a bill, etc. Don't you think that the distinction would be a bit more clear?





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November 25th, 2011, 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted L Glines View Post
Sorry, I did leave that one hanging LOL

The error, in my opinion, was in using the negative "...either the Truth, or it is blasphemous..." attitude-comparison as a selling tool. It's a dead horse which has been kicked to death since those way-early days when the RCC was dividing into factions across Europe. It caused turmoil then and it will cause turmoil now. The Roman Catholic Church has no need to defend its rituals/services from those ancient and outworn attacks anymore. Apologetics is fine, but the modern Roman Catholic Church has nothing to gain by bringing up negativity from the far distant past. If I could chat with Dr. Kreeft, I would see if we could not find a suitably positive comparison/contrast to replace that moment in his speech.

In short, Dr. Kreeft was using this negative point to show contrast with the supremely positive stance of the Church, but, it is a deadly contrast to use in a public forum where attackers will pick it up and make it viral. And they surely will
I think I see what you mean. I think Kreeft's intent is the same as Lewis' was: to get people off the fence. For instance, Lewis' statement was a polarizing statement, and it probably pushed some to hold the liar or lunatic position. But Lewis was confident that the "Lord" position has strong evidential support. Same with Kreeft. Some may decide the Church is the whore of Babylon, but Kreeft is confident that the evidence points elsewhere. And more than anything I think he is looking for honesty in seeking truth. If someone honestly decides that the Church is the whore of Babylon, then good for them! Let's discuss it! The Catholic Church has never been opposed to such dialogue.

Quote:
That said, I would really like to hear some more from Dr. Peter Kreeft; he is a great orator.
I'd check out his website, he speaks on a number of topics. I really like his "Christianity in the Lord of the Rings" on this page.



Edit: I see it costs $1 on Amazon now. Used to be free





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformationís understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

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November 25th, 2011, 11:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
I am sympathetic toward many things Catholic. However, I cannot get passed the simple duck argument--you know, the old one that says, "if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, then it is probably a duck..."

Most of the apologetics that many Catholics engage in can be boiled down to convincing others that Catholic Christianity is not a duck. The feathers are not really feathers, the bill is not really a bill, etc. Don't you think that the distinction would be a bit more clear?
Are you saying that the bad behavior of Catholics is a testament to the falsity of Catholicism? I think the Church is a duck I think it quacks like Christ's Church





"If a sheerly linguistic version of the gospel could be concocted, it would merely so be no longer the gospel. In the Lutheran Reformationís understanding, which we believe in this matter to be correct, the sacraments make the inalienable externality of the gospel message and therefore are necessary to the authenticity of that message." (Christian Dogmatics [1984], II:302-303 as cited in Pontifications)

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