[Cruciform]

You can find Dr. Kreeft's fascinating conversion story here.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Self serving propaganda you say?

Sure. You wouldn't find a Baptist or Church of pastor echoing the sentiment.

John Henry Newman was a very highly respected priest and scholar in the Anglican community.

You want a list of respected priest/scholars who remain Anglican? And either establish? There you have it.

At the age of about 45 he had learned so much that he could no longer deny the truth of the Catholic Church.

That must have been it. Also why there are no lifelong, brilliant scholars to be found anywhere else in Christendom.

His conversion was an enormous affair. It polarized his former colleagues at Oxford and destroyed many relationships he had with his family and friends.

Then either they or he or both were a bit stiff necked and not particularly adept at the whole friendship thing.

So forgive me if "self-serving propaganda" seems an ignorant and foolish label to ascribe to Newman's statements in his area of expertise.

Oh, I forgive you for that and then some.

As to whether history is a subjective affair, I certainly disagree,

I never said something so irrational in all my life.

But we both know the story of Henry VIII and Thomas More, as well as the reasons for the Anglican break with the Church.

And we both know why Luther found himself a hammer, how many Popes sired children and how often there was more than one of them running about Europe. Do those scandals delegitimize your particular faith?

You are something of an Anglican/Episcopalian TH, have you ever actually read Cardinal Newman?

I have. But my affiliation with the Episcopal church was during my formative years and subsequent time as an atheist. So if I kept at it I might have become a Bishop at some point... you've read Spong, I presume.

For as Kreeft notes in part 1, in the end the only reason to believe something is because it is true.

Or, the only reason to accept something is because you believe it's true, which isn't exactly the same thing.

[Cracked]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Are you saying that the bad behavior of Catholics is a testament to the falsity of Catholicism? I think the Church is a duck I think it quacks like Christ's Church

No, no... I am thinking more about many of the basic Protestant complaints about Catholicism--like Mary, the saints, graven images, priests as mediators, purgatory, etc.

[Ted L Glines]

Thanks for that link, zippy. "The minimum fee allows a hired online marketing partner to distribute these lectures to a far greater audience than could otherwise be possible. It can now be previewed in searches on vendors such as iTunes, Amazon, eMusic, Rhapsody, Last.fm, MySpace Music, Zune, Nokia, Napster and a dozen more." And on MySpace Music, the entire piece can be heard, free! Very cool

[Nick M]

Cliff notes? I was already catholic. Then I read the bible, and that was the end of that. Then I read secular history and learned of Constantine and his mother's fake finds.

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

You want a list of respected priest/scholars who remain Anglican? And either establish? There you have it.

I'd be more interested in seeing someone actually answer Newman's points.

That must have been it. Also why there are no lifelong, brilliant scholars to be found anywhere else in Christendom.

Find me someone who knew history and the Patristics as well as Newman did and is not a Catholic.

I never said something so irrational in all my life.

You imply such things all the time in your defenses against Catholicism. Your fervor for objective truth burns brightly in your conversations with atheists and the like, but when it comes to ecumenism it seems to dwindle and you adopt a more subjective mindset.

And we both know why Luther found himself a hammer, how many Popes sired children and how often there was more than one of them running about Europe. Do those scandals delegitimize your particular faith?

Luther's theses rightly protested bad behavior (and there was genuine reform in the Church following). Does Peter's denial delegitimize Christianity? Kreeft talks on this in parts 4 and 5.

But the Reformation is not analogous to the Anglican break, and so my point concerning Henry holds.

I have. But my affiliation with the Episcopal church was during my formative years and subsequent time as an atheist. So if I kept at it I might have become a Bishop at some point... you've read Spong, I presume.

Do you affiliate with any church now? I read some Spong as an agnostic, but never made it through an entire book. I don't think Spong himself should reflect strongly on the Anglican church, though I do not know how they handled his ...doctrine.

Or, the only reason to accept something is because you believe it's true, which isn't exactly the same thing.

Same thing imo. Speak to Newman's points if you'd like. It seems to me that there are only two viable options for a Christian fully seeking truth (one who understands the early church and history to a fair extent) : Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.

[Ted L Glines]

Originally Posted by Cracked

No, no... I am thinking more about many of the basic Protestant complaints about Catholicism--like Mary, the saints, graven images, priests as mediators, purgatory, etc.

Protestant complaints about Catholicism? Gosh, out here in my Bible Belt protestant churches, we have Mary, the saints, graven images, pastors as mediators, purgatory, etc. It's called Christianity and that old time religion, and the choirs sound more the same all the time

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Nick M

Cliff notes? I was already catholic. Then I read the bible, and that was the end of that.

You "read the Bible" according to whose bindingly authoritative interpretation?---through the lens of which particular doctrinal tradition? See here.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Nick M]

Originally Posted by Cruciform

You "read the Bible" according to whose bindingly authoritative interpretation?---through the lens of which particular doctrinal tradition?

The catholic doctrination of which I was raised in.

[Cruciform]

Originally Posted by Nick M

The catholic doctrination of which I was raised in.

So, you read the Bible through the lens of the Catholic doctrinal Tradition, and this led you away from the Catholic faith?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

[Cracked]

Originally Posted by Ted L Glines

Protestant complaints about Catholicism? Gosh, out here in my Bible Belt protestant churches, we have Mary, the saints, graven images, pastors as mediators, purgatory, etc. It's called Christianity and that old time religion, and the choirs sound more the same all the time

No, no. It goes like this:

Protestant: "You worship Mary."
Catholic: "No. We venerate Mary."

--OR--

Protestant: "You're a duck."
Catholic: "No, I am a tiger. Quack."

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by Cracked

No, no... I am thinking more about many of the basic Protestant complaints about Catholicism--like Mary, the saints, graven images, priests as mediators, purgatory, etc.

Oh really? I don't find such things problematic at all. I mean there are good responses to all of those assertions all over the internet, and Kreeft even touches on them a bit in the OP videos.

If you have specific questions on those things, there are Catholics on TOL who could probably help you, including me. Otherwise find a good Catholic priest and he can connect those dots for you. That sort of thing wasn't protested much by Luther at all, is very sound, and should not be a reason to stay outside the Church. Each is an important gift from Christ, but the history and explanation of each of them has the potential to go quite deep.

[zippy2006]

Originally Posted by Cracked

No, no. It goes like this:

Protestant: "You worship Mary."
Catholic: "No. We venerate Mary."

--OR--

Protestant: "You're a duck."
Catholic: "No, I am a tiger. Quack."

We ask Mary to pray for us. If you see someone kneeling before a statue of Mary, how do you come to decide that they are worshipping her as if she were God rather than asking for her prayers? Is your claim that a Catholic quacks like a duck that believes Mary is God based on anything more than your imagination and an unfortunate suspicion?

[Cracked]

Originally Posted by zippy2006

Oh really? I don't find such things problematic at all. I mean there are good responses to all of those assertions all over the internet, and Kreeft even touches on them a bit in the OP videos... Each is an important gift from Christ, but the history and explanation of each of them has the potential to go quite deep.

That is exactly my point. See my last post.

[Ted L Glines]

Originally Posted by Cracked

No, no. It goes like this:

Protestant: "You worship Mary."
Catholic: "No. We venerate Mary."

--OR--

Protestant: "You're a duck."
Catholic: "No, I am a tiger. Quack."

You must have heard that from someone and thought it was pretty sharp. "Holy Mary, mother of God" -- we protestants are beseeching her to pray in intercessation for us, and that is what Catholics do, too. Apparently, you've heard something different than what takes place in church.

Theists insist on misunderstanding each other. It is easier to misconstrue than to study. Actually, that is not true, but then ...