[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by Granite

They were flawed men who didn't seek veneration and who in most cases would be horrified of the idolatry heaped on them today.

You mean like all men, they too had flaws? And yes, like the good Christians that they were, they didn't seek praise for the Christian legislation that they inaugurated into a new nation.

Since Ralphie hasn't decided to run off, I'll copy and paste something just for him that I posted earlier in the thread, but deserves to be read again:

(From another expert on Constitutional Law and the Founding Fathers: Dr. Archie P. Jones):

"Morris’ great work is a magnificent contribution to our understanding
of the Christian—or dominantly Christian—history of these
United States of America. The evidence which he presents makes
it unmistakably clear that early American citizens and statesmen
knew what Romans 13 and the Bible as a whole make so clear: that
civil government is not neutral among religions and philosophies of
men but instead is a ministry of the sovereign God who created and
rules His universe and world, and works out His eternal plan and
holy will in history. Our forefathers in the faith did not retreat from
involvement in society and politics. They did not turn civil government,
the making, enforcement, and adjudication of laws, over to
Satan and those who serve him. They did not surrender the ministry
of civil government to those who are in rebellion against God. Instead,
they sought to base civil government and law upon the truth.
They understood that God is the Lord of history who rules the lives
of nations by His divine providence, and that He is in authority over
our nation as well over all others. They knew that our nation’s civil
government and law must be based upon God’s laws and principles
of justice if we are to enjoy His blessings upon our land and people.
They comprehended that all men are sinners, and that man’s sinful
nature has particularly destructive consequences when it is allowed
to vent itself through the power of civil government.
They understood that true religion (Christianity), virtue, and liberty are
inseparately united, and that liberty cannot long be perserved in the absence
of virtue among the people and their representative."

[WizardofOz]

Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj

Land of Liberal "Truths" About the Founding Fathers and Secularism

Feel free to actually join in the conversation. There are plenty of points open for you to address.

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

I see in another thread that you're a fan of Moveon.org.

Why am I not surprised?

When did I say I was a fan of Moveon.org?

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

Since Ralphie hasn't decided to run off

Where did I go?

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

I'll copy and paste something

I'm shocked that you would cut and paste something.
I've never seen you do that before.

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

like the good Christians that they were, they didn't seek praise for the Christian legislation that they inaugurated into a new nation.

You're going to keep repeating that lie.

What "Christian legislation"? Give some examples and include evidence that they were based on Christianity.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by waterbear

“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was part of the common law” ~ Thomas Jefferson

"... I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson

New thread: Was Jefferson neurotic?

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by Lon

"... I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson

New thread: Was Jefferson neurotic?

I find it odd that atheists and their fellow God-haters always fall back on Thomas Jefferson quotes when they're making attempts to prove that the Founding Fathers of our once great Christian nation were "deists, atheists, or agnostic", yet they don't know that "the least religious of the Founding Fathers" wrote his own Bible.

While Thomas Jefferson questioned the divinity of Jesus Christ, he didn't question the other truths that came with the Holy Bible:

THE
Jefferson Bible
The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth
Extracted Textually from the Gospels

Compiled by Thomas Jefferson

"Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative."
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

[Granite]

Originally Posted by Lon

"... I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson

New thread: Was Jefferson neurotic?

No, he was consistent. He detested orthodox Christianity, was a lifelong deist, and never trusted organized religion. This question of yours only makes sense if you think Christianity has a monopoly on the word "God."

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

I find it odd that atheists and their fellow God-haters always fall back on Thomas Jefferson quotes when they're making attempts to prove that the Founding Fathers of our once great Christian nation were "deists, atheists, or agnostic", yet they don't know that "the least religious of the Founding Fathers" wrote his own Bible.

While Thomas Jefferson questioned the divinity of Jesus Christ, he didn't question the other truths that came with the Holy Bible:

THE
Jefferson Bible
The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth
Extracted Textually from the Gospels

Compiled by Thomas Jefferson

"Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative."
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

They take the quotes of our founders out of "context" in order to create a different context. Instead of seeing a nation founded on Christianity they want one founded on a disbelief in Christianity and all religion. I guess it goes along with their secular atheism--a disbelief in God and religion. And when they say atheistic secularism is not a religion or a belief they reveal their disbelief in "rational" debate.

--Dave

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by Granite

No, he was consistent. He detested orthodox Christianity, was a lifelong deist, and never trusted organized religion. This question of yours only makes sense if you think Christianity has a monopoly on the word "God."

Take me off ignore Granite, I'm actually starting to feel pity for your ignorance.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...&postcount=229

[aCultureWarrior]

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave

They take the quotes of our founders out of "context" in order to create a different context. Instead of seeing a nation founded on Christianity they want one founded on a disbelief in Christianity and all religion. I guess it goes along with their secular atheism--a disbelief in God and religion. And when they say atheistic secularism is not a religion or a belief they reveal their disbelief in "rational" debate.

--Dave

Well said!

[Granite]

They take the quotes of our founders out of "context"...

And not a single Christian here ever has done this.

Here's a suggestion: before you start accusing people of cherrypicking, do some of your own reading. Actually read what these men said; don't rely on the quotes someone else has hand-selected for you. That requires more time and work, but it's worth it. I can't guarantee you'll like what you find, though.

There's an industry of quote miners and cherrypickers who call themselves "scholars" whose niche is to convince Christians their country, and its founders, were and are something that they're not. And if you're impressed by this pseudo-scholarship, fine; nothing I can about that. All I can suggest is that you go to the source. (The correspondance of Adams and Jefferson is a good place to start.)

The problem you guys have is treating the founders as infallible, monolithic men. As though what the founders thought, or did, or said always matters, or is always a reliable guide.

This comes back to the daddy issues I mentioned previously: evangelical right wingers are obsessed with strong father figures, sometimes figuratively, sometimes quite, quite literally. The obsession in somehow "proving" that the founders would agree with right wing evangelicals--as if you are so desperate for vindication that you literally need to seek out national icons to bail you out from the grave--is downright pathetic. And it drives Christians to great, dishonest lengths; witness the historical revisionism professonial liars like David Barton peddle for the living, convincing no one but the gullible faithful.

You want and need your own rewritten story to justify the martyr complex you feed. If Barton, DeMar, and the other revisionists are right, and if this was "really" a Christian nation that got hijacked by the Baby-Eating Atheists, it lends a sense of entitlement: this is my country, you can hear the believers say, it's mine, belongs to me, and the rest of you are second class.

These revisionists and their sheep detest the truth: that the founders envisioned a pluralistic polytheistic society with Christianity one voice among many. Totalitarian-minded Christians aren't interested in a seat the table; they want the only seat. So the truth--that the United States was intended as an open and free society founded by rebels, traitors, scoundrels, and men with some fairly radical ideas--doesn't sit well with the McHistory evangelicals are spoon-fed by their self-annointed scholars.

Instead of seeing a nation founded on Christianity...

Which it was not.

...they want one founded on a disbelief in Christianity and all religion.

That's closer to the mark but still inaccurate.

[Sum1sGruj]

No matter how agnostic or atheistic a person was back then, Christian morals were simply the lay of the land. Even with the opposing traits of today, it is still prevalent. It is simply embedded in our culture, going all the way back to before the middle ages.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by Granite

No, he was consistent. He detested orthodox Christianity, was a lifelong deist, and never trusted organized religion. This question of yours only makes sense if you think Christianity has a monopoly on the word "God."

Just so you know, and probably why I had a 'what the heck?' moment, this might be good temporary advice?

Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior

Take me off ignore Granite, I'm actually starting to feel pity for your ignorance.

He had addressed the question just prior with a bit more of a lengthy reply.

Thanks for addressing it though, both of you, and Dave too.

[Granite]

Just so you know, and probably why I had a 'what the heck?' moment, this might be good temporary advice?

I'm not ever going to take the rotten weasel off ignore. Sorry for the confusion though (and I'm willing to bet for all ASC's cut and paste wizardy, my answer was better).

[aCultureWarrior]

Being that the atheist still has me on ignore, I ask that someone forward this reply to him:

Originally Posted by Granite

Here's a suggestion: before you start accusing people of cherrypicking, do some of your own reading.

Good point; I suggest books and articles by David Barton, Dr. Archie P. Jones, and Professor John Eidsmoe for a start.

Actually read what these men said; don't rely on the quotes someone else has hand-selected for you. That requires more time and work, but it's worth it. I can't guarantee you'll like what you find, though.

Where did you read the quotes Granite, from your personal collection of Founding Fathers documents, or did you rely on various God-hating "hand-selected" atheist sources like "People for the American Way" or that cute little dyke Chris Rodda from the "Military Religious Freedom Foundation"? (Supply your sources).
WARNING: OFFENSIVE LINK
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile..._4217725_n.jpg

There's an industry of quote miners and cherrypickers who call themselves "scholars" whose niche is to convince Christians their country, and its founders, were and are something that they're not. And if you're impressed by this pseudo-scholarship, fine; nothing I can about that.

Those "pseudo scholars" can be found at numerous websites that push the religion of atheism.

All I can suggest is that you go to the source. (The correspondance of Adams and Jefferson is a good place to start.)

As experts like Barton, Jones and Eidsmoe have done.

The problem you guys have is treating the founders as infallible, monolithic men. As though what the founders thought, or did, or said always matters, or is always a reliable guide.

Being that you have the directions to Hell in your slimy little hands, I doubt that many people want you to be their "tour guide".

This comes back to the daddy issues I mentioned previously: evangelical right wingers are obsessed with strong father figures, sometimes figuratively, sometimes quite, quite literally.

We "evangelical right wingers" (unlike our atheists counterparts) have the edge on you, as we know who our daddy is.

The obsession in somehow "proving" that the founders would agree with right wing evangelicals--as if you are so desperate for vindication that you literally need to seek out national icons to bail you out from the grave--is downright pathetic. And it drives Christians to great, dishonest lengths; witness the historical revisionism professonial liars like David Barton peddle for the living, convincing no one but the gullible faithful.

Yeah, this quote from "The Father of our Nation" sounds pretty "leftwing" to me:

"(T)he foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality; ...the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained..." - George Washington

You want and need your own rewritten story to justify the martyr complex you feed. If Barton, DeMar, and the other revisionists are right, and if this was "really" a Christian nation that got hijacked by the Baby-Eating Atheists, it lends a sense of entitlement: this is my country, you can hear the believers say, it's mine, belongs to me, and the rest of you are second class.

You've upgraded atheists from the luggage compartment to 2nd Class Granite (without permission of the Pilot...note the Capital "P" Ralphie).

These revisionists and their sheep detest the truth: that the founders envisioned a pluralistic polytheistic society with Christianity one voice among many. Totalitarian-minded Christians aren't interested in a seat the table; they want the only seat. So the truth--that the United States was intended as an open and free society founded by rebels, traitors, scoundrels, and men with some fairly radical ideas--doesn't sit well with the McHistory evangelicals are spoon-fed by their self-annointed scholars.

Don't you just hate those "scoundrels", 29 of them being ordained Christian ministers?

Those same "rebels" did things like hold church in the Capital Building, have Congress authorize the publishing of the Bible for distribution in America, and get this:

They legislated against things like homosexuality and abortion!

Real "radical progressives" of their day weren't they Granite?

[DFT_Dave]

Originally Posted by Granite

And not a single Christian here ever has done this.

Here's a suggestion: before you start accusing people of cherrypicking, do some of your own reading. Actually read what these men said; don't rely on the quotes someone else has hand-selected for you. That requires more time and work, but it's worth it. I can't guarantee you'll like what you find, though.

There's an industry of quote miners and cherrypickers who call themselves "scholars" whose niche is to convince Christians their country, and its founders, were and are something that they're not. And if you're impressed by this pseudo-scholarship, fine; nothing I can about that. All I can suggest is that you go to the source. (The correspondance of Adams and Jefferson is a good place to start.)

The problem you guys have is treating the founders as infallible, monolithic men. As though what the founders thought, or did, or said always matters, or is always a reliable guide.

This comes back to the daddy issues I mentioned previously: evangelical right wingers are obsessed with strong father figures, sometimes figuratively, sometimes quite, quite literally. The obsession in somehow "proving" that the founders would agree with right wing evangelicals--as if you are so desperate for vindication that you literally need to seek out national icons to bail you out from the grave--is downright pathetic. And it drives Christians to great, dishonest lengths; witness the historical revisionism professonial liars like David Barton peddle for the living, convincing no one but the gullible faithful.

You want and need your own rewritten story to justify the martyr complex you feed. If Barton, DeMar, and the other revisionists are right, and if this was "really" a Christian nation that got hijacked by the Baby-Eating Atheists, it lends a sense of entitlement: this is my country, you can hear the believers say, it's mine, belongs to me, and the rest of you are second class.

These revisionists and their sheep detest the truth: that the founders envisioned a pluralistic polytheistic society with Christianity one voice among many. Totalitarian-minded Christians aren't interested in a seat the table; they want the only seat. So the truth--that the United States was intended as an open and free society founded by rebels, traitors, scoundrels, and men with some fairly radical ideas--doesn't sit well with the McHistory evangelicals are spoon-fed by their self-annointed scholars.

Which it was not.

That's closer to the mark but still inaccurate.

Thanks for proving my point.

--Dave

[Granite]

Originally Posted by DFT_Dave

Thanks for proving my point.

--Dave

You don't have one. This response just proves you don't know what you're talking about and have nothing to say.