Theology Online | Christian Forums & More

  
Active Threads
Social Groups
Go Back   Theology Online | Christian Forums & More > Politics, Religion, And The Rest > Religion
Reload this Page Refuting conservative fantasies about the Founding Fathers and Christianity
Religion Discuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#241) Old
aCultureWarrior aCultureWarrior is offline
LIFETIME MEMBER
 aCultureWarrior's Avatar

 

Reputation:
aCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peers
February 15th, 2012, 05:53 PM

Tis a fine day to reopen this thread.

Any "Constitutionalists" that would like to take a shot here?





"Smoking cannabis makes people more intelligent."

Dope smoker and attempted Presidential assassin Oscar Romero Ortega-Hernandez
   
Reply With Quote
  (#242) Old
YahuShuan YahuShuan is offline
Follower of Yahu'Shua Messiah
 YahuShuan's Avatar

 

Reputation:
YahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 02:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
Here's the foreward to the book that you'll both obviously be reading so that we can have an educated discussion here:

Foreword
Archie P. Jones, Ph.D.
Rev. Benjamin F. Morris’ magnum opus, the Christian Life and
Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States, could not
be more pertinent to present day American life. The little-known
information that it contains is just as true today as it was in 1864 and
is far more needed than it was in the mid-nineteenth century. Moreover,
American Christians have long neglected the heritage that God
has given us through our Christian forefathers, so the vast majority of
American Christians are ignorant of the Christian character of our civil
government institutions.
Furthermore, there has been a long-standing effort by anti-Christian scholars
and propagandists to de-Christianize American civil government, law and life.
Largely because of their ignorance, many Christians have been misled by
the disinformation lead by anti-Christian writers who have obscured or denied
the Christian nature of our heritage of civil government and law.
That heritage was not perfect but it was superior
to the heritage of any other people on earth, and both Christians and
non-Christians benefited immeasurably from our God-given heritage
of Christian influence upon civil government and law in America.
Hence, the interesting information presented by Rev. Morris is a must reading
for Christians and non-Christians alike.

Morris’ great work is a magnificent contribution to our understanding
of the Christian—or dominantly Christian—history of these
United States of America. The evidence which he presents makes
it unmistakably clear that early American citizens and statesmen
knew what Romans 13 and the Bible as a whole make so clear: that
civil government is not neutral among religions and philosophies of
men but instead is a ministry of the sovereign God who created and
rules His universe and world, and works out His eternal plan and
holy will in history. Our forefathers in the faith did not retreat from
involvement in society and politics. They did not turn civil government,
the making, enforcement, and adjudication of laws, over to
Satan and those who serve him. They did not surrender the ministry
of civil government to those who are in rebellion against God. Instead,
they sought to base civil government and law upon the truth.
They understood that God is the Lord of history who rules the lives
of nations by His divine providence, and that He is in authority over
our nation as well over all others. They knew that our nation’s civil
government and law must be based upon God’s laws and principles
of justice if we are to enjoy His blessings upon our land and people.
They comprehended that all men are sinners, and that man’s sinful
nature has particularly destructive consequences when it is allowed
to vent itself through the power of civil government.
They understood that true religion (Christianity), virtue, and liberty are
inseparately united, and that liberty cannot long be perserved in the absence
of virtue among the people and their representative
.

Table of Contents:

Foreword 7
Preface 17
Introduction 23
1. Sources of Proof to Establish the Christian Life and
Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States 39
2. The Hand of God in the Settlement of the
American Continent 55
3. Puritan Settlement—Its Christian Motives and Scenes 61
4. Civil Government Instituted in the Mayflower on
a Christian Basis 71
5. Christian Colonization of the New England Colonies 83
6. Christian Systems of Education in the
New England Colonies 95
7. Christian Colonization of Pennsylvania—New York
—New Jersey—Delaware 107
8. Christian Colonization of Virginia—Maryland—
South Carolina—North Carolina—Georgia 119
9. Statesmen of the Revolution—Their Views of
Christianity and Its Relations to Civil Society and
Government 139
10. Christian Legislation of the Continental Congress 241
11. State Constitutions During the Revolution—
Christian Doctrines Incorporated in them as
Fundamental Law 267
12. The Federal Constitution a Christian Instrument 293
13. Christian Scenes in the First Congress Under
the Constitution 323
14. The Christian Acts and Scenes of the Army
of the Revolution 333
15. Government Chaplains 367
16. Christian Ministers of the Revolution 405
17. Christian Women of the Revolution 475
18. Christian Churches of the Revolution—
Congressional Churches 515
19. Christian Churches of the Revolution—The Baptist
Churches—Methodist Episcopal Church 553
20. Christian Churches of the Revolution—The Reformed
Dutch Church and Other Churches—
German Lutheran Church—Universalist Convention 571
21. Christian Character of Washington 599
22. Fast and Thanksgiving Days 651
23. Thanksgiving Days Appointed by the Senate 701
24. Christian Scenes in the Capitol of the Republic 769
25. Christianity of American Courts, and Christian
Character of Eminent American Judges 797
26. The Christian Element in the Civil War
of the United States 841

Since it will take you and waterbear a week to order and receive the book, and a few days to get through the entire 1,060 pages, here's an article by the man who wrote the foreward entitled:

"Christianity, Our Early State Constitutions,
and American Federalism".
http://www.contra-mundum.org/cm/features/10_Jones.pdf
And that's not just any "god" either...It is "The God of the Bible"! Good posts.





YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#243) Old
aCultureWarrior aCultureWarrior is offline
LIFETIME MEMBER
 aCultureWarrior's Avatar

 

Reputation:
aCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 02:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YahuShuan View Post
And that's not just any "god" either...It is "The God of the Bible"! Good posts.
Thank you.





"Smoking cannabis makes people more intelligent."

Dope smoker and attempted Presidential assassin Oscar Romero Ortega-Hernandez
   
Reply With Quote
  (#244) Old
The Barbarian The Barbarian is online now
TOL Legend
 The Barbarian's Avatar

 

Reputation:
The Barbarian is well respected by his peers
The Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peersThe Barbarian is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 05:49 AM

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated under George Washington, signed by president John Adams, and ratified by a Senate composed of the Founders.

Q.E.D.





God bless us, every one.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#245) Old
Granite Granite is offline
Resident Gadfly
 Granite's Avatar

 


Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 06:29 AM

Conservatives are known for their daddy issues, insomuch as they constantly crave strong male role models and seek out authoritarian male leadership.

To see it taken to such astonishing, literal extremes just makes me shake my head.





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.



Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.


He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#246) Old
Wile E. Coyote Wile E. Coyote is offline
TOL Subscriber
 Wile E. Coyote's Avatar

 

Reputation:
Wile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peersWile E. Coyote is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 06:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
I do not either, because I would rather believe what scriptures teach than what "orthodox Christianity" teaches.
But you do NOT believe what the scriptures teach. You said that Jesus is not the source of eternal salvation. I replied saying that an inspired Jew disagrees with you,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post

An inspired Jew disagrees with you,

"And He (Christ) became the SOURCE of eternal SALVATION unto all that obey HIM"

Hebrews 5:9 NIV
Hebrews 5:9 NASB
Hebrews 5:9 ESV

Oatmeal's version: And He became the ultimate agent of eternal salvation....

Inspired Jew's version: And He became the SOURCE of eternal salvation....
Then you replied saying "I don't care."

Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post

I don't care who disagrees.

Scripture is clear.

God has sent many saviors throughout time.

He is the only source for salvation, but not the only agent of salvation.

Jesus Christ is the ultimate agent of salvation. God gave that responsibility to him and he carried it out.

Jesus Christ is one of many agents of salvation throughout time, sent by God to save.

Read the scriptures I gave you and quit arguing with the scriptures.

Gideon was given the responsibility to save Israel.

Jesus Christ was given the responsibility to be the savior of the world.

Too bad not all have accepted that salvation.

oatmeal
You do NOT believe the scriptures. You believe your Arain errors!



   
Reply With Quote
  (#247) Old
Lon Lon is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 Lon's Avatar

 

Reputation:
Lon is well respected by his peers
Lon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 06:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post

How do you shut up a ACLU lawyer, a member of the "Americans United for Separation of Church and State", the "Freedom from Religion Foundation", Mikey Weinstein's "Military Relgious Freedom Foundation" and the score of other communists that try to say that the Founding Fathers weren't Christian men that based our founding documents on Christian principles?

Have them read this book (all 1,060 pages of it)

Not all 1060 pages, but some online reading exerpts with a plethora of extended research items linked at the bottom.





A brief overview of Arminian/Calvinist distinctions

Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************

Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
   
Reply With Quote
  (#248) Old
YahuShuan YahuShuan is offline
Follower of Yahu'Shua Messiah
 YahuShuan's Avatar

 

Reputation:
YahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peersYahuShuan is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote View Post
But you do NOT believe what the scriptures teach. You said that Jesus is not the source of eternal salvation. I replied saying that an inspired Jew disagrees with you,


Then you replied saying "I don't care."



You do NOT believe the scriptures. You believe your Arain errors!
How 'bout looking a little deeper, to see what Oatmeal said...Heb 5:9-11 And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him, having been designated by Elohim a High Priest “according to the order of Malkitseḏeq,” concerning whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

"He became", meaning He was not, before He became.
"Having been designated by Elohim", meaning that before He became, Elohim held that authority, but then designated Yeshua to bring forth the reality of it.

Can you grasp that? Makes sense to me. Becoming something means you weren't that before you became it...a fairly simple concept. And that's "Arian" by the way, and has nothing to do with what Oatmeal said. Neither does refuting what Oatmeal said have anything to do with this thread, or bringing this people back to where they need to be.





YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.

Last edited by YahuShuan; May 15th, 2012 at 07:10 PM.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#249) Old
Granite Granite is offline
Resident Gadfly
 Granite's Avatar

 


Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon View Post
Not all 1060 pages, but some online reading exerpts with a plethora of extended research items linked at the bottom.
Morris just did the same thing Barton is doing now. And if the best you can do is something from 1864...





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.



Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.


He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#250) Old
Lon Lon is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 Lon's Avatar

 

Reputation:
Lon is well respected by his peers
Lon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peers
May 15th, 2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Morris just did the same thing Barton is doing now. And if the best you can do is something from 1864...
First, I didn't find it, did you happen to note I was responding to another who did?

Second, 1864 makes it obsolete? I generally think you are as well educated as I am on some of this, to know better on some of this, Granite.





A brief overview of Arminian/Calvinist distinctions

Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************

Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
   
Reply With Quote
  (#251) Old
Granite Granite is offline
Resident Gadfly
 Granite's Avatar

 


Reputation:
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
Granite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peersGranite is well respected by his peers
May 16th, 2012, 11:12 AM

Quote:
Second, 1864 makes it obsolete?
That all depends. I was commenting more on the desperation inherent to appealing to propaganda from the 19th century.





Theocrats are Social Darwinists.



Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.


He isn't there, which is why he's silent.
   
Reply With Quote
  (#252) Old
aCultureWarrior aCultureWarrior is offline
LIFETIME MEMBER
 aCultureWarrior's Avatar

 

Reputation:
aCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peers
May 16th, 2012, 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
Morris just did the same thing Barton is doing now. And if the best you can do is something from 1864...
Yet I noticed after this post
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...6&postcount=85

except for Choleric's excellent post, the "Barton bashing" thread went silent.





"Smoking cannabis makes people more intelligent."

Dope smoker and attempted Presidential assassin Oscar Romero Ortega-Hernandez
   
Reply With Quote
  (#253) Old
Lon Lon is offline
Gold level Subscriber
 Lon's Avatar

 

Reputation:
Lon is well respected by his peers
Lon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peersLon is well respected by his peers
May 16th, 2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
That all depends. I was commenting more on the desperation inherent to appealing to propaganda from the 19th century.
Yeah but that's different than the 'date' of the thing. I don't see dates as problematic of anything.





A brief overview of Arminian/Calvinist distinctions

Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************

Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
   
Reply With Quote
  (#254) Old
Zeke Zeke is offline
Over 3000 post club
 Zeke's Avatar

 

Reputation:
Zeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peersZeke is well respected by his peers
May 16th, 2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite View Post
No, he was consistent. He detested orthodox Christianity, was a lifelong deist, and never trusted organized religion. This question of yours only makes sense if you think Christianity has a monopoly on the word "God."
Yep!



   
Reply With Quote
  (#255) Old
aCultureWarrior aCultureWarrior is offline
LIFETIME MEMBER
 aCultureWarrior's Avatar

 

Reputation:
aCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peersaCultureWarrior is well respected by his peers
May 16th, 2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon View Post
Not all 1060 pages, but some online reading exerpts with a plethora of extended research items linked at the bottom.
Angelfire.com is a great source on early America. I've especially enjoyed reading about how the Bible played a big role in public education (until the atheists got a hold of the education system).

I've read secular (God hating) reviews of Benjamin F. Harris' "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States", and the only valid argument against it, was that he didn't use footnotes.

That being said, it's easy to validate his writings by looking at documents such as early state constitutions and other documents available online.





"Smoking cannabis makes people more intelligent."

Dope smoker and attempted Presidential assassin Oscar Romero Ortega-Hernandez
   
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright ©1997-2012 TheologyOnLine

Logos Bible Study Software Up to 15% OFF FOR THEOLOGYONLINE MEMBERS! Study twice, post once.
Logos Bible Software —take your Bible study to the next level.