[Frank Ernest]

I am always amazed at how the s retrieve these super-secret government documents with such ease. Of course the super-secret documents ALWAYS support the claims, the big one being that anything to the political right of Josef Stalin is evil.

Lie-berals do not want freedom. They want their own version of Saddam Hussein to run America. They want a defenseless America subject to the whims of North Korea, China and European socialists who seek to rape America's wealth and enslave her people. That is what unilateral disarmament, global warming, United Nations, etc. are all about - making productive and compassionate America into a slave state for the non-productive, greedy elitists of the rest of the world.

You little s and wannabes can follow your Satanic Majesty to the dystopic Hell you would like the create for the rest of us. I'm not going there, I'm not riding in your car, and I'm not buying your gas either. Gag on your own lying bile while you're at it.

[simply one]

Isn't it always so much easier to put down others than to make a valid point yourself? Since you are unable to respond to the truth, you simply hide behind rrogance and insults. Also, note: If ANY party wants to turn America into a state of dictatorship, its the neo-cons. They are the ones slashing the rights of Americans, misleading the country with their "intelligence" and pissing off the rest of the friggin world. Earth is a BIG place and we can't separate ourselves from the other 6 billion humans on this rock.

-----

peace, love, equality

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by simply one

Isn't it always so much easier to put down others than to make a valid point yourself?

Frank made a very valid point. Putting down commies like Aikido and yourself is just the icing on the cake!

Since you are unable to respond to the truth, you simply hide behind rrogance and insults.

Depends on the poster we are responding to. Aikido had his day when we would actually attempt to engage him in a conversation but it proved to be an execise in futility. I can see the same thing happening to you if you don't stop whining and start actually posting something worth responding to.

Also, note: If ANY party wants to turn America into a state of dictatorship, its the neo-cons. They are the ones slashing the rights of Americans, misleading the country with their "intelligence" and pissing off the rest of the friggin world.

Clinton, Kerry, Gore etc. all had the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion. Do a little research, junior, it will save you some embarrassment.

Earth is a BIG place and we can't separate ourselves from the other 6 billion humans on this rock.

Spoken like a true commie.

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Frank Ernest

I am always amazed at how the s retrieve these super-secret government documents with such ease. Of course the super-secret documents ALWAYS support the claims, the big one being that anything to the political right of Josef Stalin is evil.

Lie-berals do not want freedom. They want their own version of Saddam Hussein to run America. They want a defenseless America subject to the whims of North Korea, China and European socialists who seek to rape America's wealth and enslave her people. That is what unilateral disarmament, global warming, United Nations, etc. are all about - making productive and compassionate America into a slave state for the non-productive, greedy elitists of the rest of the world.

You little s and wannabes can follow your Satanic Majesty to the dystopic Hell you would like the create for the rest of us. I'm not going there, I'm not riding in your car, and I'm not buying your gas either. Gag on your own lying bile while you're at it.

Points for that one Frank, as soon as I can!

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by On Fire

How do you tell if a threat is serious and urgent?

That's a question that Bush and company didn't bother to answer either. In all likelihood, they didn't even care if the threat was serious and urgent. Remember, they wanted to start a war before the threat became serious and urgent. Therefore, they made a case for war using not the facts as that were, but the hearsay from defectors, and tried to fix the facts to support their preconceived policy.

Of course, the real answer to how to tell if a threat is serious and urgent is to identify clear, hard, empirical evidence of WMDs. Only such evidence of a real, significant and imminent threat could justify any preemptive war. When the lives of thousands of innocent people are at stake, preemptive wars in the absence of a significant and imminent threat are not morally justified.

If we had let the UN inspectors continue to do their job, we would have known that such hard evidence was not to be found. It had not been found up to the date Bush invaded, which should have been enough reason not to start a war. But Bush and company kicked out the inspectors, because they were afraid that the lack of hard evidence would hurt their preconceived goal of invading Iraq. The longer the UN inspectors went without finding any hard evidence, the harder it would have been to justify waging Bush's preemptive war. If the inspectors had actually found hard evidence of WMD, then preemption might have been more justified. But Bush didn't want to take the chance of missing out on his opportunity to take Iraq.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

After ten years of Saddam ignoring and defying UN Resolutions and restrictions left over from the 1991 Gulf War, it was time to finish him off.

I don't care if Saddam had ignored and defied UN Resolutions for 100 years! As long as there is no clear, hard, empirical evidence of a real, significant and imminent threat, preemptive wars are never justified.

[BillyBob]

Saddam was a terrorist, that's all we needed. But there was more, much more.

Saddam was a Terrorist

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

Clinton, Kerry, Gore etc. all had the same intelligence and came to the same conclusion. Do a little research, junior, it will save you some embarrassment.

They never came to the conclusion that Iraq was such an imminent threat that a preemptive war was necessary.

I suspect that, as soon as Bush took office in 2000, his Pentagon/CIA buddies began to fix the facts to support invading Iraq.

See:

Bush Advisers Planned Iraq War Since 1990s

Practice to Deceive: Chaos in the Middle East is not the Bush hawks' nightmare scenario--it's their plan.

Just the Beginning: Is Iraq the opening salvo in a war to remake the world?

Bush Wanted To Invade Iraq If Elected in 2000

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Frank Ernest

I am always amazed at how the s retrieve these super-secret government documents with such ease. Of course the super-secret documents ALWAYS support the claims, the big one being that anything to the political right of Josef Stalin is evil.

Lie-berals do not want freedom. They want their own version of Saddam Hussein to run America. They want a defenseless America subject to the whims of North Korea, China and European socialists who seek to rape America's wealth and enslave her people. That is what unilateral disarmament, global warming, United Nations, etc. are all about - making productive and compassionate America into a slave state for the non-productive, greedy elitists of the rest of the world.

You little s and wannabes can follow your Satanic Majesty to the dystopic Hell you would like the create for the rest of us. I'm not going there, I'm not riding in your car, and I'm not buying your gas either. Gag on your own lying bile while you're at it.

You must be one of the dumbest dumb people I've ever met. You honestly can't see that globalization is a US business invention that, in your words, turns the world into a slave state for the non-productive, greedy elitists of the US. Your buddy Bush is just plowing the ground for them.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by BillyBob

Saddam was a terrorist, that's all we needed.

No, that's NOT all we need.

Even if you want to call Saddam a "terrorist" (which is a misapplication of the term), simply because the leader of a country is a "terrorist," this does not justify bloody preemptive wars against such countries in the absence of clear, hard evidence of an imminent threat.

Terrorism has been with us for a very long time. And we've had WMDs in the world for a very long time. Terrorists have attacked the U.S. in one way or another for a very long time. Now that a relatively small group of terrorists get really lucky and successfully fly planes into buildings, killing about 3000 people in one day, this does not mean that we all of a sudden have to have a new all out "war on terrorism" that involves preemptive wars against countries who we merely suspect are a terrorist threat. Preemptive wars in the absence of an imminent threat were wrong before this so-called "war on terrorism" and they are wrong during the "war on terrorism." I'm sorry, but terrorists have always been around and they always will be around. And there will never be a time when it is morally justified to prevent terrorist threats by waging preemptive wars against "terrorist" nations that are not clearly a significant and imminent threat.

You might not like my moral stance on this issue. So be it. Feel free to have your own. I, for one, will never agree that it's OK to sacrifice the lives of thousands of innocent men, women and children in another country in order to protect the lives of thousands of innocent American men, women and children, simply because our leaders suspect that a "terrorist" nation might someday pose a real and significant threat, if we don't preemptively kill them first. If there is no clear, hard evidence of a real, significant and imminent threat, we are just going to have to take our chances, until hard evidence of such a threat materializes.

[On Fire]

How many days since Bush was elected (and not impeached)?

[aikido7]

Originally Posted by Frank Ernest

I am always amazed at how the s retrieve these super-secret government documents with such ease. Of course the super-secret documents ALWAYS support the claims, the big one being that anything to the political right of Josef Stalin is evil.

Lie-berals do not want freedom. They want their own version of Saddam Hussein to run America. They want a defenseless America subject to the whims of North Korea, China and European socialists who seek to rape America's wealth and enslave her people. That is what unilateral disarmament, global warming, United Nations, etc. are all about - making productive and compassionate America into a slave state for the non-productive, greedy elitists of the rest of the world.

You little s and wannabes can follow your Satanic Majesty to the dystopic Hell you would like the create for the rest of us. I'm not going there, I'm not riding in your car, and I'm not buying your gas either. Gag on your own lying bile while you're at it.

I am thankful for people working under the powers and principalities of this world are still able to effect enough transformation of their character to defy those powers and start taking their responsiblity seriously to Divine Law. We have been told that all that is hidden will be revealed. This is just the way God works through history. We should never be afraid of what the truth is, wherever it leads us.

All the whims, enslavements and greed we fear could be unacknowledged demons we assign to others. It was Jesus who gave us the earliest known teaching of what modern psychology calls "projection" in his "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye...?" teaching. Our first instinct is to say "I may be somewhat bad (a speck) but those people are really bad (the log)." Jesus is inviting us to use our enemy as a gift--to enable us to see things in ourselves we cannot see any other way.

When we are able to develop an objective rage at our enemies' injustices and still see them as children of God, we have a shot at helping them recover their own humanity.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by On Fire

How many days since Bush was elected (and not impeached)?

How many days have the Righties been in control of Congress, after hoodwinking the American public again in the last election? If the Righties were not in power, we would have had the necessary investigations and Bush might very well have been impeached by now.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally Posted by aikido7

I am thankful for people working under the powers and principalities of this world are still able to effect enough transformation of their character to defy those powers and start taking their responsiblity seriously to Divine Law. We have been told that all that is hidden will be revealed. This is just the way God works through history. We should never be afraid of what the truth is, wherever it leads us.

All the whims, enslavements and greed we fear could be unacknowledged demons we assign to others. It was Jesus who gave us the earliest known teaching of what modern psychology calls "projection" in his "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye...?" teaching. Our first instinct is to say "I may be somewhat bad (a speck) but those people are really bad (the log)." Jesus is inviting us to use our enemy as a gift--to enable us to see things in ourselves we cannot see any other way.

When we are able to develop an objective rage at our enemies' injustices and still see them as children of God, we have a shot at helping them recover their own humanity.

You took a couple of Bible verses and constructed a whole secular humanist "religion" out of of it. Congrats, !

[BillyBob]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

How many days have the Righties been in control of Congress, after hoodwinking the American public again in the last election? If the Righties were not in power, we would have had the necessary investigations and Bush might very well have been impeached by now.