Originally posted by BillyBob
Look, if we want to eliminate terrorism, we have to eliminate terrorists.
Simple.
Do you think we can eliminate crime by eliminating criminals? That's like trying to eliminate poverty by eliminating poor people!
Terrorism isn't like some genetic disease that can be eliminated by killing off all those with some kind of defective terrorist genes.
BillyBob, your strategy would be a never-ending futile battle. Success can only be had if the ideas that support terrorism are replaced with those which are more rational. Eliminating the people holding the ideas will do nothing.
Education and frequent exposure to alternative rational viewpoints is a much more powerful weapon than those that kill people.
And one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter! So, before the world could eliminate all terrorists (which will never happen), everyone must first agree on what constitutes terrorism.
An argument can rationally be made that Bush's unnecessary massive preemptive invasion of Iraq, which violated international law, and was opposed by a vast majority of people on the planet, was a huge act of terrorism - one far worse that 9/11!!
The Bush Lies: "When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
Originally posted by wholearmor
Bush didn't deliberately kill innocents as terrorists do.
Yes he did!!
There was no justifiable reason that Bush had to deliberately violate international law and launch a full-scale preemptive invasion of Iraq, which killed many thousands of innocent people!
All of the real evidence to date (despite the fake evidence before the war) suggests that Iraq was NOT a threat to America or other countries. Need I rehash what you should have been reading in all of the major newspapers about Bush's failure to prove Iraq's pre-war threat, the real-time existence of WMD, and a link between Iraq and international terrorists? These facts are uncontroversial. There are various unproven assumptions and suspicions, but these do not rise to the level of certainty required to justify a full-scale preemptive military invasion of a country!!
The Bush Lies: "When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
Slogan/motto:
I'll go with the one I learned from Bob Enyart: Do right and risk the consequences. Another one I like is: What did you expect?
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August 21st, 2003, 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Yes he did!!
There was no justifiable reason that Bush had to deliberately violate international law and launch a full-scale preemptive invasion of Iraq, which killed many thousands of innocent people!
All of the real evidence to date (despite the fake evidence before the war) suggests that Iraq was NOT a threat to America or other countries. Need I rehash what you should have been reading in all of the major newspapers about Bush's failure to prove Iraq's pre-war threat, the real-time existence of WMD, and a link between Iraq and international terrorists? These facts are uncontroversial. There are various unproven assumptions and suspicions, but these do not rise to the level of certainty required to justify a full-scale preemptive military invasion of a country!!
Location: The greatest country man has ever known.
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August 21st, 2003, 06:46 PM
Skeptic, put on a turban, find a camel and go live with your brethren in the Middle east, PLEASE. I am sure they will welcome you with open arms....or open AK47's.
I am so sick of your 'Terrorist apologetics'. You are actually saying that the terrorism aimed at this country is deserved and we are the ones to blame for the terrorist!
You are a sick, misguided, pup who should stop listening to Bill Clinton and the Communist Left, you are actually starting to believe that crap.
Originally posted by wholearmor
Not deliberately like terrorists do.
Oh, I suppose Bush accidentally gave the order to preemptively invade Iraq and drop all of those bombs on innocent people?
Bush's actions were premeditated and deliberate!!
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.
The Bush Lies: "When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
Originally posted by BillyBob
You are actually saying that the terrorism aimed at this country is deserved and we are the ones to blame for the terrorist!
Show me where I have said that the terrorism aimed at this country is deserved! I have never said any such thing!! No one deserves acts of terrorism, including the Iraqis at the hands of the U.S. military.
The U.S. is partly to blame, not for specific terrorists acts (other that the invasion of Iraq), but rather for the proliferation of the ideas/hatred toward the U.S. and other countries who have had a strong bias in favor of Israel over the Palestinians. Israel's stubbornness to negotiate in fairness a resolution to the dispute, and their refusal to actively work toward a Palestinian state (which should have been formed decades ago) continues to fuel the fire of terrorism.
And Bush's unnecessary unjust massive preemptive invasion of Iraq, which violated international law and killed many thousands of people, is partly to blame for any increase in terrorist threats to America or against Americans!!
The Bush Lies: "When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
======================== Published on Thursday, August 21, 2003 by the New York Times A Price Too High
by Bob Herbert
How long is it going to take for us to recognize that the war we so foolishly started in Iraq is a fiasco — tragic, deeply dehumanizing and ultimately unwinnable? How much time and how much money and how many wasted lives is it going to take?
At the United Nations yesterday, grieving diplomats spoke bitterly, but not for attribution, about the U.S.-led invasion and occupation. They said it has not only resulted in the violent deaths of close and highly respected colleagues, but has also galvanized the most radical elements of Islam.
"This is a dream for the jihad," said one high-ranking U.N. official. "The resistance will only grow. The American occupation is now the focal point, drawing people from all over Islam into an eye-to-eye confrontation with the hated Americans.
"It is very propitious for the terrorists," he said. "The U.S. is now on the soil of an Arab country, a Muslim country, where the terrorists have all the advantages. They are fighting in a terrain which they know and the U.S. does not know, with cultural images the U.S. does not understand, and with a language the American soldiers do not speak. The troops can't even read the street signs."
The American people still do not have a clear understanding of why we are in Iraq. And the troops don't have a clear understanding of their mission. We're fighting a guerrilla war, which the bright lights at the Pentagon never saw coming, with conventional forces.
Under these circumstances, in which the enemy might be anybody, anywhere, tragedies like the killing of Mazen Dana are all but inevitable. Mr. Dana was the veteran Reuters cameraman who was blown away by jittery U.S. troops on Sunday. The troops apparently thought his video camera was a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
The mind plays tricks on you when you're in great danger. A couple of weeks ago, in an apparent case of mistaken identity, U.S. soldiers killed two members of the Iraqi police. And a number of innocent Iraqi civilians, including children, have been killed by American troops.
The carnage from riots, ambushes, firefights, suicide bombings, acts of sabotage, friendly fire incidents and other deadly encounters is growing. And so is the hostility toward U.S. troops and Americans in general.
We are paying a terribly high price — for what?
One of the many reasons Vietnam spiraled out of control was the fact that America's top political leaders never clearly defined the mission there, and were never straight with the public about what they were doing. Domestic political considerations led Kennedy, then Johnson, then Nixon to conceal the truth about a policy that was bankrupt from the beginning. They even concealed how much the war was costing.
Sound familiar?
Now we're lodged in Iraq, in the midst of the most volatile region of the world, and the illusion of a quick victory followed by grateful Iraqis' welcoming us with open arms has vanished. Instead of democracy blossoming in the desert, we have the reality of continuing bloodshed and heightened terror — the payoff of a policy spun from fantasies and lies.
Senator John McCain and others are saying the answer is more troops, an escalation. If you want more American blood shed, that's the way to go. We sent troops to Vietnam by the hundreds of thousands. There were never enough.
Beefing up the American occupation is not the answer to the problem. The American occupation is the problem. The occupation is perceived by ordinary Iraqis as a confrontation and a humiliation, and by terrorists and other bad actors as an opportunity to be gleefully exploited.
The U.S. cannot bully its way to victory in Iraq. It needs allies, and it needs a plan. As quickly as possible, we should turn the country over to a genuine international coalition, headed by the U.N. and supported in good faith by the U.S.
The idea would be to mount a massive international effort to secure Iraq, develop a legitimate sovereign government and work cooperatively with the Iraqi people to rebuild the nation.
If this does not happen, disaster will loom because the United States cannot secure and rebuild Iraq on its own.
A U.N. aide told me: "The United States is the No. 1 enemy of the Muslim world, and right now it's sitting on the terrorists' doorstep. It needs help. It needs friends."
========================
The Bush Lies: "When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."
"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
Slogan/motto:
"A day is as a thousand years" is about perspective. Two hours on the highway, to a five year old, seems like an eternity! To a 50 year old trucker, it's just the start of a good morning
Dear Bush bashers
For all of you who REFUSE to understand why Saddam had to be defeated, let me suggest a Mel Gibson movie marathon. Start with Braveheart followed by The Patriot then just about the time you start to hate yourself for wanting to stand up and cheer when the bad guy takes it in the neck... It's time to watch Ransom. Ok it's been a long day but I have the feeling that the principles of justice are just beginning to sink in. You better watch Braveheart again. You can catch We were soldiers another day.
Love Delmar
♠
"So if I stand, let me stand on the promise that You will see me
through
And if i can't let me fall on the Grace that first brought me to you"
Slogan/motto:
"A day is as a thousand years" is about perspective. Two hours on the highway, to a five year old, seems like an eternity! To a 50 year old trucker, it's just the start of a good morning
Location: The greatest country man has ever known.
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August 22nd, 2003, 06:30 AM
Skeptic;
Show me where I have said that the terrorism aimed at this country is deserved! I have never said any such thing!! No one deserves acts of terrorism, including the Iraqis at the hands of the U.S. military.
Billy;
Uh, see below paragraph. Oh, and if you call the liberation of Iraqi people a form of terrorism, you are confirming your membership in the communist/liberal Partisan Hack Club.
Skeptic;
The U.S. is partly to blame, not for specific terrorists acts (other that the invasion of Iraq), but rather for the proliferation of the ideas/hatred toward the U.S. and other countries who have had a strong bias in favor of Israel over the Palestinians.
Billy;
So, Israel is an ally of ours and they are the good guys in the war against the palestinians.
Skeptic;
Israel's stubbornness to negotiate in fairness a resolution to the dispute, and their refusal to actively work toward a Palestinian state
Billy;
You don't know what you are talking about. Israel was willing to comply with a deal brokered by Bill Clinton in which the 'palestinians' would have their own state. Arafat pulled out, not Israel. You are repeating the same communist/democrat mantra that your liberal media is brainwashing you with.
Skeptic;
(which should have been formed decades ago)
Billy;
Why? Those people would still be killing Israeli's with or without a 'State'. The palestinians blew it again just this week, but I suppose you are going to blame the Israeli's for the palestinians blowing up a bus full of children.
Skeptic;
continues to fuel the fire of terrorism.
Billy;
Bull! palestinians terrorize Jews because they hate Jews. The muslim doctrine is one of hate, murder and vengeance against ALL who are not muslim. Go read a history book, junior.
Skeptic;
And Bush's unnecessary unjust massive preemptive invasion of Iraq, which violated international law and killed many thousands of people, is partly to blame for any increase in terrorist threats to America or against Americans!!
Billy;
You are insane! By your line of reasoning, the US and the rest of the world should be extorted by the muslims and give them whatever they desire because if we don't, they will blow up a building.
That is the stupidest thing you have ever said....[I didn't think it was possible for you to say something stupider than your previous 'stupidest thing you ever said']
Last edited by BillyBob; August 22nd, 2003 at 08:32 AM.
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