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Reload this Page Freewill -- Perception and History
Religion Discuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
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rainee rainee is online now
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January 23rd, 2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PureX View Post
Yeah, because Jesus is hiding in the words of the Bible. So if you study it and memorize it and argue about it long enough, and finally get your beliefs just exactly correct, then you'll know Jesus and you'll finally be a true Christian.
Lol, thank you. You made tears come to my eyes.
You know I was really angry.

It's not your fault but you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Maybe you could read Steko's testimony or some others to get some idea what you are trying to talk about but who knows?
   
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  (#182) Old
Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Nang View Post
Sorry about the deleted post, where I answered to disobedience, rather than obedience.
I didn't see it.
Quote:
Obedience is a requirement, not a choice.
Do you remember Jesus talking about the son who did not do what was asked of him? Did he make a choice/decision, or was his unwillingness to obey after he said that he would "automatic" or "determined"?
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And only Jesus Christ proved able to meet the requirements of full obedience to God under the Law.
It is possible, though it may not be preferred, for people to be less than perfect in their obedience.
Quote:
Sinners are only able to enjoy the blessings of Christ's obedience, through the forensic imputation of His righteous living, to their account.

The believers obedience is one of submission of will
Is our will automatically submitted, or are you saying we need to submit our will?
Quote:
and thanksgiving, and not one of requirement under the Law . . . for Christ has provided that achievement in their stead!

That is what we call GRACE!

And it is by GRACE that the Christian lives his life in this flesh, awaiting everlasting life and glory with the Savior in His heavenly kingdom.

Nang
I am all in favor of grace, but I don't think it means it has been determined that sinners, or (and meaning) anyone for that matter, be disobedient.

To hear and obey involves both what is said and what is done. What is done is the result of the choice/choices made in regard to what was heard, sometimes with other factors coming into play.




Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
   
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  (#183) Old
Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 09:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
There was never any choice given to A&E to do otherwise!
Why was it said that they must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?




Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
   
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Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nang View Post
If you think so, please provide the Scripture that says God gave A&E a "choice."

Or any other Scripture that uses the word "choice" or "choose" in context of the creature successfully "choosing" righteousness.

There is no such scripture. Do your own biblical word study.

The only times the words "choose" or "choice" are used, it is in reference to Sovereign God "choosing" the salvation of His Elect in Christ, who alone fulfilled all the demand of God's moral and Holy Law.
People do choose things.

principle of first mention:

Exodus 17:9 So Moses said to Joshua, "Choose men for us and go out, fight against Amalek. Tomorrow I will station myself on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand."




Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
   
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Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
God did not offer Adam or Eve a choice.
By saying "not offer" are you saying that God did offer them a command that they were incapable of disobeying?
Quote:
God gave them a command and they proved themselves incapable of choosing to obey that command.




Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
   
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chrysostom chrysostom is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rainee View Post
Chrys you should go
I understand




a voice crying in the wilderness :chrysost:
   
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  (#187) Old
elohiym elohiym is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
I obedience a choice?
Choice doesn't imply free will.

Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or divine intervention. Again, that is the only definition relevant to a discussion about free will in relation to the gospel.

A choice made because of deception isn't a free will choice.
   
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  (#188) Old
Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
Choice doesn't imply free will.
I'm not saying it does. In fact, I don't think you need to know about "free will" to know that you make choices.
Quote:
Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or divine intervention. Again, that is the only definition relevant to a discussion about free will in relation to the gospel.

A choice made because of deception isn't a free will choice.
I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of freewill(/free will).




Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
   
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  (#189) Old
Nang Nang is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
Why was it said that they must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
You are calling this command, a "choice."

When God commands man to not steal, does that give man a choice to steal?

When God commands man to not murder, does that give man a choice to murder?

The command given to Adam to not partake of the tree of knowledge, did not give Adam the option or choice to partake of the tree.

Adam broke a command. That was not a "choice," but a moral failure which revealed an unloving and rebellious heart towards God.

Nang




"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”

. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
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elohiym elohiym is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
I'm not saying it does.
Whether you are or not, it is something that has been implied repeatedly on this thread. People are using the word "choose" and "free will" synonymously. I am merely pointing out again that an ability to choose does not imply free will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of freewill(/free will).
It is the only definition, straight out of the English language dictionary, that could possibly have relevance to what we are discussing. No other definition matters if it does not include this part: "not determined by prior causes or divine intervention."

Free will - "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
   
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sky. sky. is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang View Post
You are calling this command, a "choice."

When God commands man to not steal, does that give man a choice to steal?

When God commands man to not murder, does that give man a choice to murder?

The command given to Adam to not partake of the tree of knowledge, did not give Adam the option or choice to partake of the tree.

Adam broke a command. That was not a "choice," but a moral failure which revealed an unloving and rebellious heart towards God.

Nang
This is just absurd. The fact that they BROKE a command shows that they had a choice to either BREAK it or NOT! Did they make the wrong choice? Yes they did. How did they do that? The were FREE to make the CHOICE!
   
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Nang Nang is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Untellectual View Post
By saying "not offer" are you saying that God did offer them a command that they were incapable of disobeying?
Commands are not "offered." Commands are proclaimed. Commands are the holy requirements of God, that should never be opposed or broken.

Adam demonstrated natural man cannot keep the covenant commands and thereby live up to the holiness of God. But God was not surprised, for before time He decreed that only the last Adam, Jesus Christ, would keep all the covenant commands and promises.

Salvation came from the failure of the first Adam, but everlasting life was never intended to come from earthly Adam. He was just the first representative of mankind in the flesh; the last Adam representing men was spiritual (the Lord from heaven), in whose name alone men would find remission of their sins and everlasting life. (I Corinthians 15:42-57)

Nang




"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."

“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”

. . . Gordon H. Clark
   
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Untellectual Untellectual is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Nang View Post
You are calling this command, a "choice."
No I am not. I'm am calling our response to God's commands our choice. To obey or disobey... and Adam and Eve chose to disobey, did they not? Else, how "the fall"?
Quote:
When God commands man to not steal, does that give man a choice to steal?
I would rather say it gives man the choice to not steal.
Quote:
When God commands man to not murder, does that give man a choice to murder?
It gives man the choice to not murder.
Quote:
The command given to Adam to not partake of the tree of knowledge, did not give Adam the option or choice to partake of the tree.
I don't believe God permits sin. But I do believe He allows it.
Quote:
Adam broke a command. That was not a "choice," but a moral failure which revealed an unloving and rebellious heart towards God.

Nang
How was there any failure if the only thing that could have happened is obedience?




Deuteronomy 10:12 (KJV) And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 10:13 (KJV) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
   
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elohiym elohiym is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nang View Post
Adam broke a command. That was not a "choice," but a moral failure which revealed an unloving and rebellious heart towards God.
I believe you are correct when you say Adam had no choice when it came to keeping God's command, but he did make a choice to disobey. His choice was made based on a false belief that was formed due to deception; hence it was not a free will choice.
   
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sky. sky. is offline
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January 23rd, 2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by elohiym View Post
Choice doesn't imply free will.

Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or divine intervention. Again, that is the only definition relevant to a discussion about free will in relation to the gospel.

A choice made because of deception isn't a free will choice.
The devil made her do it? Well it looks like we all have an excuse then.
   
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