[PureX]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

That's okay. Maybe you have never been puzzled by it. Is the will involved in sorting out these thoughts and determining an action? That's my understanding of it (the matter).We are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made.

The first time saw the theological debate was here on TOL. It puzzled me for a while, until I realized that regardless of what God knows about what I will decide, I still DON'T KNOW. So from my perspective, I am still choosing, even if my choice is "pre-destined".

Also, it seems rather odd to me that God would bother with any of this (existence) if He already knows how everything will turn out. And then add to that, that there can't really be love if there is no option not to love. The whole "no free will" theory just doesn't hold water for me.

On the other hand, it is obviously that we do not have total freedom in that we can do whatever we will to do. I may will myself to levitate, but it just isn't going to happen. Many things I might will to happen, aren't going to. So our will is clearly severely limited.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by PureX

The first time saw the theological debate was here on TOL. It puzzled me for a while, until I realized that regardless of what God knows about what I will decide, I still DON'T KNOW. So from my perspective, I am still choosing, even if my choice is "pre-destined".

Interesting. From my reading of the Bible, I don't remember any place that says our choices are pre-destined.

Also, it seems rather odd to me that God would bother with any of this (existence) if He already knows how everything will turn out. And then add to that, that there can't really be love if there is no option not to love. The whole "no free will" theory just doesn't hold water for me.

I don't think we want an option to not love.

On the other hand, it is obviously that we do not have total freedom in that we can do whatever we will to do. I may will myself to levitate, but it just isn't going to happen. Many things I might will to happen, aren't going to. So our will is clearly severely limited.

It's not that we can do anything we set our minds to (do).

[PureX]

Originally Posted by elohiym

Not a silly question at all.

Romans 7:15-30

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

How could anyone read that and not wonder if they have a "free will" or not?

I have experienced addiction, so I can identify with the idea that "I do what I do not wish to do". But I don't use imaginary spirits and demons to excuse or explain or condemn myself. Addiction is a nasty business, and hard to break, but it's just addiction. It's not my hopeless sin-self trying to devour my soul or whatever. I mean that's not how I see it.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by sky.

I don't know what determinism is.

This (from Wikipedia) may be helpful to anyone unfamiliar with the terms used in discussions about free will:

The dilemma of determinism is the claim that if determinism is true, our actions are controlled by preceding events and thus we are not free; and that if indeterminism is true, our actions are random and we are likewise not free; and that as determinism and indeterminism exhaust the logical possibilities, free will is thus logically impossible.

Various philosophical positions provide various responses to this argument, including:

• Compatibilism, which accepts the possibility of both determinism and free will
• Incompatibilism which says one cannot accept determinism and free will, with the resulting positions:

• Hard determinism (choosing determinism)
• Metaphysical Libertarianism (choosing free will)
• Hard Indeterminism (rejecting both determinism and free will)

[sky.]

Originally Posted by sky.

I also believe that by the Holy Spirit of God we make good choices. We can do no less than give God the credit for the good blessing that we have received in our lives as a result of the choices that we have made.

A common understanding of freewill is that it is given to us by God, and that we are free to sin as much as we like. This may seem counter-intuitive to some of our understandings, but this is the impression of freewill that I received in philosophy class when I was in Community College. I do not believe that God has given us permission to sin, so I am adverse to this opinion.

I do believe we have a will. I don't know what is meant by "free".

I have never heard that as being a common understanding of "free will". When I hear people talk about "free will" it has always been in the context of God's sovereignty in our salvation vs our willingness to concede. If someone has told you that Christians who believe "free will" means that we can't and don't have to control ourselves then they are mistaken. Are we perfect? no are we free to sin all we want because we are Christian? maybe... but it would be really dumb and disrespectful to do that.

Do not put the Lord your God to the test...I don't know if that's out of context but I'm going with it.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

I have never heard that as being a common understanding of "free will". When I hear people talk about "free will" it has always been in the context of God's sovereignty in our salvation vs our willingness to concede. If someone has told you that Christians who believe "free will" means that we can't and don't have to control ourselves then they are mistaken. Are we perfect? no are we free to sin all we want because we are Christian? maybe... but it would be really dumb and disrespectful to do that.

Do not put the Lord your God to the test...I don't know if that's out of context but I'm going with it.

The Bible does talk about self-control.

Self-control may be a problem for some if they are given to a particular sin, for example.

I don't know if instructing someone to have self-control is the Biblical pattern, but I do believe the Bible speaks positively of something called "self-control". I also believe it is a good thing to help others that they would be able to have self-control where they have previously struggled with any given particular issue.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by elohiym

[*]Hard Indeterminism (rejecting both determinism and free will)

Interesting that nothing is said on this and there is no link to this one. No way to tell if I agree.

[Untellectual]

Some say the choice of a vocation is a freewill choice.

[Untellectual]

Some say the only choice you cannot make is to become a Christian. Because God saves who He wants to according to His choice, not ours.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Some say the only choice you cannot make is to become a Christian. Because God saves who He wants to according to His choice, not ours.

But that would be an irrational statement, wouldn't it? I mean, if it were true, there wouldn't be any way for the person making the statement to know it.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by PureX

But that would be an irrational statement, wouldn't it? I mean, if it were true, there wouldn't be any way for the person making the statement to know it.

Maybe I haven't thought about it as far as you have.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Intellectual

Some say the only choice you cannot make is to become a Christian. Because God saves who He wants to according to His choice, not ours.

Originally Posted by PureX

But that would be an irrational statement, wouldn't it? I mean, if it were true, there wouldn't be any way for the person making the statement to know it.

This is a good answer because non freewill proponents as far as salvation goes have to and often do say that they know every one's sovereignty in God compared to their own. They allow for God to deliver them in His sovereignty and then they judge God's sovereignty for others.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

This is a good answer because non freewill proponents as far as salvation goes have to and often do say that they know every one's sovereignty in God compared to their own. They allow for God to deliver them in His sovereignty and then they judge God's sovereignty for others.

I believe there are those who struggle both with being chosen themselves as well as if how others are chosen.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I believe there are those who struggle both with being chosen themselves as well as if how others are chosen.

I believe that people who struggle with being chosen have been taught that God chooses and they need to just sit back and wait.

[Desert Reign]

I agree with the OP that the 'free' in 'freewill' doesn't say anything that isn't already in 'will'.

The will is not limited by restrictions such as not being able to levitate, it is rather defined by them. If you were able to do absolutely anything you could conceive, then you would have to be in a world of your own because the moment someone else is in your world, you have to take them into account. If you were completely alone with nothing and no one to interfere with you, you would have total power but your power would be power over nothing at all. Thus the value or meaning we give to our choices are values determined by the effect our actions have on others and on the world in general. This is why we are responsible for our actions.

The strange thing is that this applies to God as well. No matter how much power you attribute to him, he still has to take us into account when he does something. All these things that we have to take into account are known as constraints. Constraints are by definition shared; they are the means by which we can communicate with others and with the world around us in general. My will is not shared with others but the constraints I live with are. I have to use the same road as my neighbour and I can't drive on the footpath to get around the jam. I have to use the same language as my neighbour otherwise he will not understand me when I tell him his dog just bit me. But it is on the road that I can meet my neighbour and if I invite him back, we will drink the same drink from the same bottle or kettle. And even though I can't make the sky turn suddenly green just because I want to, I can talk to my neighbour about the blue sky in the confidence that he also is subject to the same constraint as I am because the blue sky is something shared by us.