[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

Regeneration does seem like a new term but I think it doesn't do any harm.

It has some history to it.

Salvation equations is theology at its finest! As to your first statement. I didn't really say that but that is kind of why I don't understand what "hearing with faith" means. Maybe that we add faith to what we hear, that is the human requirment...agreement.

Doing good works is not a relationship with God, unless there is faith.

But were they doing good works?

To have faith when we hear the word of God is to trust God, that we are dependant upon Him, and that we know He and His promises will not fail us. Then the good works we do are out of faith.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Was I talking to you?

No problem.



AMR

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion

No problem.



AMR

Why are you quoting me? I'm missing if I said something to you or if it was what I said to Nang?

In other words, what just happened that you would say "No problem." and wave as if there is nothing else you can respond to here? I have tried to make you feel welcome and I feel there is now a misunderstanding between us.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Doing good works is not a relationship with God, unless there is faith.

But were they doing good works?

To have faith when we hear the word of God is to trust God, that we are dependant upon Him, and that we know He and His promises will not fail us. Then the good works we do are out of faith.

I sure agree that good works proceed from faith otherwise we would be doing them on our own and without the honest and stead fast faith that we need to even claim that they are good.

One thing I know is that the grace of God is for a purpose.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

I sure agree that good works proceed from faith otherwise we would be doing them on our own and without the honest and stead fast faith that we need to even claim that they are good.

One thing I know is that the grace of God is for a purpose.

Yes. We don't know where we would be without the grace of God. Instead of what I thought just before that... "Where would we be without the grace of God"?

[Clete]

Untellectual,

Are you aware that you are attempting to have a rational conversation with people who deny the veracity of reason?

What I mean by that is that you are attempting to understand how Calvinists reconcile the their doctrine of God's Sovereignty with Man's responsibility, (or any other Calvinist doctrine with its Free-Will corollary), when the Calvinist himself sees no need to reconcile them. Indeed, they intentionally throw out the need to reconcile such issues by simply calling them "antinomies" or "matters of faith" or whatever other term they want to use.

If you ask a Calvinist, "Does God absolutely control every event that occurs?", the answer will be an unqualified, "Yes!".

If you ask a Calvinist,"Are people personally responsible for their own actions?", again, you will get an unqualified, "Yes".

If you ask, "How can both be true?", the answer you get will be one version or another of, "I don't know, its a mystery that we humans are incapable of understanding, but that's what the Bible teaches and so we just have to believe it anyway."

If that answer isn't good enough for you then it won't be long before they pull out the "It must be spiritually discerned!" trump card and insinuate that they are more spiritual than you are because they are willing to accept doctrines that makes no sense. After all, they'll tell you, that's what faith is, the willingness to turn off your brain and simply (blindly) believe.

In short, if you are looking for an explanation that makes sense, you are wasting your time. The further down that road you go, the more and more humanistic, fleshly and unspiritual you will be accused of being. In the mind of a Calvinist, the more willing you are to accept nonsense as truth, the more pious you become.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Clete

Untellectual,

Are you aware that you are attempting to have a rational conversation with people who deny the veracity of reason?

What I mean by that is that you are attempting to understand how Calvinists reconcile the their doctrine of God's Sovereignty with Man's responsibility, (or any other Calvinist doctrine with its Free-Will corollary), when the Calvinist himself sees no need to reconcile them. Indeed, they intentionally throw out the need to reconcile such issues by simply calling them "antinomies" or "matters of faith" or whatever other term they want to use.

If you ask a Calvinist, "Does God absolutely control every event that occurs?", the answer will be an unqualified, "Yes!".

If you ask a Calvinist,"Are people personally responsible for their own actions?", again, you will get an unqualified, "Yes".

If you ask, "How can both be true?", the answer you get will be one version or another of, "I don't know, its a mystery that we humans are incapable of understanding, but that's what the Bible teaches and so we just have to believe it anyway."

If that answer isn't good enough for you then it won't be long before they pull out the "It must be spiritually discerned!" trump card and insinuate that they are more spiritual than you are because they are willing to accept doctrines that makes no sense. After all, they'll tell you, that's what faith is, the willingness to turn off your brain and simply (blindly) believe.

In short, if you are looking for an explanation that makes sense, you are wasting your time. The further down that road you go, the more and more humanistic, fleshly and unspiritual you will be accused of being. In the mind of a Calvinist, the more willing you are to accept nonsense as truth, the more pious you become.

Resting in Him,
Clete

There are different kinds of learning, and we cling to that which is familiar to us.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

There are different kinds of learning, and we cling to that which is familiar to us.

What?

How is that in any way responsive to what I said?

I don't care how you learned it, non-sense is non-sense, truth is truth and non-sense is not truth nor is truth non-sense!

You can beat your head against the brick wall of Calvinism all you want and it won't make a bit of difference what style of head beating you do, in the end your mind is what breaks, not the truth.

The Calvinist will tell you that you must get past your own mind in order to accept the "truth" of Calvin's doctrine, blanking out the fact that it is your mind that they are appealing to and that it is their own mind from which such an appeal originates. They are a big bunch of self-conflicted, self-defeating morons who have embraced the acceptance of their inability to understand their own doctrine as a mark is piety and faith.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[rainee]

Originally Posted by Clete

What?

How is that in any way responsive to what I said?

I don't care how you learned it, non-sense is non-sense, truth is truth and non-sense is not truth nor is truth non-sense!

You can beat your head against the brick wall of Calvinism all you want and it won't make a bit of difference what style of head beating you do, in the end your mind is what breaks, not the truth.

The Calvinist will tell you that you must get past your own mind in order to accept the "truth" of Calvin's doctrine, blanking out the fact that it is your mind that they are appealing to and that it is their own mind from which such an appeal originates. They are a big bunch of self-conflicted, self-defeating morons who have embraced the acceptance of their inability to understand their own doctrine as a mark is piety and faith.

Resting in Him,
Clete

lol

The Calvinist tells you what?

That you have more friends with the world than you do with Christians?

That Scriptures that insult men are not your friend?

That less Scripture not more Scripture is how you have to live, with it broken in pieces and not flowing?

lol,
shaking head

[rainee]

Do you know why you don't quit sinning and have to look at verses that tell you it is all right that your flesh keeps sinning?

Do you even see what you are avoiding when you look at His sacrifice and say it makes your sins ok?

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Clete

What?

How is that in any way responsive to what I said?

I don't care how you learned it, non-sense is non-sense, truth is truth and non-sense is not truth nor is truth non-sense!

You can beat your head against the brick wall of Calvinism all you want and it won't make a bit of difference what style of head beating you do, in the end your mind is what breaks, not the truth.

The Calvinist will tell you that you must get past your own mind in order to accept the "truth" of Calvin's doctrine, blanking out the fact that it is your mind that they are appealing to and that it is their own mind from which such an appeal originates. They are a big bunch of self-conflicted, self-defeating morons who have embraced the acceptance of their inability to understand their own doctrine as a mark is piety and faith.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm saying I am not a Calvinist, and don't know if I believe in the Sovereignty of God as described by Calvinists, but I do believe God is Sovereign. God is the King.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I'm saying I am not a Calvinist, and don't know if I believe in the Sovereignty of God as described by Calvinists, but I do believe God is Sovereign. God is the King.

The word 'sovereign' is a pretty simple word to understand. To be sovereign means to be the highest authority. It does not mean that you control every event that occurs. If you are the sovereign king of a nation, it doesn't mean that you control every action of every citizen, it means that there is no authority in that nation above your own. It means that there isn't anyone in the nation that you, as king, have to answer to.

God is the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. There is no authority above God. God answers to no one in all of existence other than Himself. He is therefore rightly referred to as the Sovereign over all creation.

The Bible DOES NOT teach anything beyond this simply understanding of the term 'sovereign' when used in reference to God. The Calvinists redefine the term to mean something it was never intended to mean and then use verses that make use of the word as proof texts for their doctrine, which is, of course, backward and, when done intentionally, as in the case of AMR and Nang, dishonest.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally Posted by rainee

lol

The Calvinist tells you what?

That you have more friends with the world than you do with Christians?

That Scriptures that insult men are not your friend?

That less Scripture not more Scripture is how you have to live, with it broken in pieces and not flowing?

lol,
shaking head

What the heck are you talking about?

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Clete

The word 'sovereign' is a pretty simple word to understand. To be sovereign means to be the highest authority. It does not mean that you control every event that occurs. If you are the sovereign king of a nation, it doesn't mean that you control every action of every citizen, it means that there is no authority in that nation above your own. It means that there isn't anyone in the nation that you, as king, have to answer to.

God is the King of kings, and the Lord of lords. There is no authority above God. God answers to no one in all of existence other than Himself. He is therefore rightly referred to as the Sovereign over all creation.

The Bible DOES NOT teach anything beyond this simply understanding of the term 'sovereign' when used in reference to God. The Calvinists redefine the term to mean something it was never intended to mean and then use verses that make use of the word as proof texts for their doctrine, which is, of course, backward and, when done intentionally, as in the case of AMR and Nang, dishonest.

Resting in Him,
Clete

The question must be asked, "is it okay to trust in God's Sovereignty when things for us look bleak?"

[Clete]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

The question must be asked, "is it okay to trust in God's Sovereignty when things for us look bleak?"

That depends on whether you blame God for the bleakness in your life, doesn't it?

Who can the Calvinists blame other than the one they claim is actively causing and controlling every event that happens in all the universe?

The guy who sets your house on fire so he can run in and rescue you, is no hero!

I do not blame God at all for the bleakness in my life, what of it there is. I blame sin! Some (perhaps mostly) my own but also the sin of others. And I trust the Sovereign God of Justice to balance all accounts (2 Peter 3; Romans 14:11).

Resting in Him,
Clete