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Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent. Proverbs 17:28
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January 24th, 2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by chrysostom
I am close enough to see what is going on
espn has put out these films 30 for 30
and
you should definitely watch the one on Marcus Dupree and the Pony Excess, which is about the death of football at SMU
it might open your eyes
ESPN is the source for all truth, I stand corrected.
He did the absolute least he should and could have and legally covered his butt.
I'd say that's one way to read it. I've presented another that's as plausible and more in line with what we actually know about the character of the man.
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When it's a matter of kids getting raped, I expect more. That's just me.
Yes. That's what distinguishes your position and mine...
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And now his testimony's inadmissable, damaging the odds of getting a conviction. Yep, bang-up job from old Joe. Well done.
Yeah, it was just mean spirited and irresponsible of Joe to die from lung cancer.
I'd say that's one way to read it. I've presented another that's as plausible and more in line with what we actually know about the character of the man.
What we know about the man based on his inaction is that his priorities were fairly twisted, TH. That's the problem Paterno's defenders seem to have: they don't actually believe his inaction reflects on him. I say it does. This bizarre religious-like veneration of the man keeps his defenders from thinking clearly or rationally. I encountered a Paterno zealot this weekend and saw a perfectly well-adjusted and well-educated adult human being almost commit assault. What gives?
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Yes. That's what distinguishes your position and mine...
Actually, yes. That's part of it.
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Yeah, it was just mean spirited and irresponsible of Joe to die from lung cancer.
He seemed plenty cruel and indifferent long before his death.
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
What we know about the man based on his inaction is that his priorities were fairly twisted, TH.
No, that's what you assume and it's not in line with the history of his conduct and contributions.
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That's the problem Paterno's defenders seem to have: they don't actually believe his inaction reflects on him. I say it does.
You didn't actually read my differing analysis of the same facts then, did you? But even Paterno, in hindsight, wished he had done more. Again, he trusted the wrong people, but the buck stops with him. Given the subject matter he should have trusted less and verified more...even if doing so was, technically, overreaching his authority.
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This bizarre religious-like veneration of the man keeps his defenders from thinking clearly or rationally.
I'm and SEC guy. Never a particular fan of Paterno, though I appreciated his commitment to education and his university. I just don't care for assumptive lynch mobs.
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I encountered a Paterno zealot this weekend and saw a perfectly well-adjusted and well-educated adult human being almost commit assault. What gives?
That I can't help you with. It's sad and Paterno would disown the conduct and argue against it, as he did when students became unruly in the wake of his firing.
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Actually, yes. That's part of it.
No, it isn't and to even suggest it sets you in the posture of an unconscionably smug jerk and a worse friend... Fortunately, I'm not the sort to judge you by one lapse in judgment or conduct, if you can imagine it.
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He seemed plenty cruel and indifferent long before his death.
If you say so...because that's mostly all you've done here. I can understand that, since the life of the man won't give you much ammunition.
TH, this isn't the only time Joe Paterno sold out students for the sake of protecting the school and it's administration. He also backed Rene Portland to the bitter end when she was grossly discriminating against lesbian players on her woman's basketball team. So Granite's observations are not baseless.
TH, this isn't the only time Joe Paterno sold out students for the sake of protecting the school and it's administration. He also backed Rene Portland to the bitter end when she was grossly discriminating against lesbian players on her woman's basketball team. So Granite's observations are not baseless.
That doesn't really parallel though, X. Was he protecting her for that reason or because he shared her views on homosexuality? And I've never said Granite's side of it was without a point, only that it strained for the worst possible reading of the bald facts and frequently without regard to a more reasonable reading in line with a larger context.
No, that's what you assume and it's not in line with the history of his conduct and contributions.
Either that or you and other strangers don't know him as well as you think.
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But even Paterno, in hindsight, wished he had done more.
That's nice. It also carries zero weight. This supposedly great man was given an opportunity to do the right thing, and repeatedly did either nothing, or the bare minimum expected of him.
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Again, he trusted the wrong people, but the buck stops with him. Given the subject matter he should have trusted less and verified more...even if doing so was, technically, overreaching his authority.
Oh screw his supposed authority, TH, he owned and ran that town! He was a god among men! Who are you trying to kid? One phone call from Paterno would have been enough to stop this entire wretched situation had he chose to lift a finger and demand the full weight of the law descend. Do you honestly think he would have been ignored?
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No, it isn't and to even suggest it sets you in the posture of an unconscionably smug jerk...
Ummmm, that's fairly rich comin' from you. Just saying.
It is not enough to do only what is required of you when it comes to the abuse of children. That's no where near good enough. And it's certainly not good enough to play dumb, look the other way, and not demand an accounting from a friend when he's been accused of sexually assaulting a child. Paterno's conduct was horribly negligent, indifferent, and ultimately motivated by self-preservation. All this for a game?
Billy O'Brien has his hands full.
Theocrats are Social Darwinists.
Christianity has nothing applicable, appropriate, or worthwhile to offer the 21st century.
Either that or you and other strangers don't know him as well as you think.
Neither of us do. So I tend to go with what we can and do know and the version of things that requires the least amount of deviation and assumption.
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That's nice. It also carries zero weight.
Only if you choose a myopic, stilted and contextually inadequate position.
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This supposedly great man
Supra. Though I'd say a man who did great things more often than he failed, which is more than most manage. Only God is great.
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was given an opportunity to do the right thing, and repeatedly did either nothing, or the bare minimum expected of him.
You don't repeatedly do nothing in this context and he did something at any rate. In hindsight it wasn't enough. But had those he entrusted with the matter done their part it would have been.
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Oh screw his supposed authority, TH, he owned and ran that town! He was a god among men! Who are you trying to kid?
No one. You should probably read my answer and then get on that horse.
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One phone call from Paterno would have been enough to stop this entire wretched situation had he chose to lift a finger and demand the full weight of the law descend.
Which seems reasonable in hindsight, but likely didn't when a kid he didn't know well made statement about a trusted and long time coach alleging inappropriate conduct of a sexual nature. He didn't assume the worst. He didn't take control of the situation in contravention of school policy. He didn't rush to ruin a friend's life on the strength of an allegation.
And had he and the charge been later demonstrated to be without foundation? He'd have been as roundly criticized for violating policy and causing another harm. For acting like king and not coach Paterno.
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Do you honestly think he would have been ignored?
No. And that has never been a part of my answer.
Re: insult and self service
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Ummmm, that's fairly rich comin' from you. Just saying.
So you inferred before when we differed, though then you arrived at condescension that I never offer friends because you chose to infer it in the teeth of my denial. Nothing I could have done about that.
Here you were the first to offer insult and personalize what had been a friendly difference. And unlike you I don't consider it the rule with you, just an embarrassing exception brought on by your less exceptional tendency to get your nose out of joint.
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It is not enough to do only what is required of you when it comes to the abuse of children.
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That's no where near good enough. And it's certainly not good enough to play dumb, look the other way, and not demand an accounting from a friend when he's been accused of sexually assaulting a child. Paterno's conduct was horribly negligent, indifferent, and ultimately motivated by self-preservation. All this for a game?
Answered above and in my prior. Assumes the worst context and presses immediate facts into it while ignoring the life that argues against it.
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Billy O'Brien has his hands full.
He does indeed.
Last edited by Town Heretic; January 24th, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
That doesn't really parallel though, X. Was he protecting her for that reason or because he shared her views on homosexuality?
I don't see much of a difference. The result was certainly the same: that a number of young women were unjustly denied access to an educational experience that they earned and deserved because of a coach's vicious prejudice. She not only kicked these women off her team, she got them kicked out of the college, and in some cases tried to keep them from getting into other colleges. Not to mention the fear and humiliation they were subjected to.
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Originally Posted by Town Heretic
And I've never said Granite's side of it was without a point, only that it strained for the worst possible reading of the bald facts and frequently without regard to a more reasonable reading in line with a larger context.
Paterno was just a typical man of his generation, with all the same prejudice and ignorance and institutional loyalty as millions of other men of his time. I don't feel bad for his being exposed for the non-hero that he is. But then he shouldn't have been made a hero in the first place. Had he been treated as the man that he was all along, and questioned and contradicted when needed, instead of awed, perhaps his slide into history would have been different. And perhaps fewer young men and women would have been done so much harm because of his 'old school' neglect, ignorance, and misplaced loyalty.
...... as we see from Christian and atheist, this is not enough. Our 21st century sensibilities running amuck me thinks.
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