[IP Man]

Get real. We are not responsible for Muslim suicide attacks against their own people, whatever their twisted reasons are. If a school kid fights back against a bully, is he then responsible for the bully getting angry?

Oh, but yes you are Mr. C. Because when you take out the strongman dictator of the country, and you give all power to the opposing faction, in this case the Shiites, you cause all sorts of mayhem and chaos. Which they never had before.
You screwed up Iraq's INFRASTRUCTURE. You screwed up their
GOVERNMENT. You screwed up their QUALITY OF LIFE. You screwed up their RELATIVE HARMONY BETWEEN FACTIONS.
And you say we are not responsible for their suicide attacks on each other? YOU get real. This is real life, kid.

[IP Man]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by Law. Certainly the first Christians came from among the Jewish people. They learned from Christ what the Law really was for - the intent and spirit behind it. The ceremonial laws have been fulfilled, and the laws which were already based on moral principles have been retained as the principles they were based on.

Okay, now you have about half the story, kid. Add the first law to love your God with all of your heart soul mind and strength. And then your neighbor (Iraq) as yourself. And you sir, have the whole picture.

The first rule of a military man is to know your enemy. Saddam Hussein was an enemy. But the people of Iraq were never.
Take him out, take out his immediate underlings. And then give them back their country in one piece.

We should have gotten out nine years ago. We have made Iraq into an armed camp. Against each other.

Hindsight is always more clear. But this one was doomed from the start. Bush will go down as the worst president in the history of the U.S. This even over alcoholics and retards.

[Lazy afternoon]

Originally Posted by Tambora

The armies that Abraham, David, and Solomon had.

The armies of these men changed.

They began with the agricultural and hunting weapons made up of ordinary citizens and became into a more organized profession of learning war as time went on, but they were not meant to be by God--

1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your *****, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

LA

[Lazy afternoon]

Originally Posted by IP Man

Oh, but yes you are Mr. C. Because when you take out the strongman dictator of the country, and you give all power to the opposing faction, in this case the Shiites, you cause all sorts of mayhem and chaos. Which they never had before.
You screwed up Iraq's INFRASTRUCTURE. You screwed up their
GOVERNMENT. You screwed up their QUALITY OF LIFE. You screwed up their RELATIVE HARMONY BETWEEN FACTIONS.
And you say we are not responsible for their suicide attacks on each other? YOU get real. This is real life, kid.

You speak truth.

I am at a loss to understand how a trained army leadership who must have studied how General Macarthur took over Japan, could have allowed their President disbandon the Iraq army and its political structures instead of only replacing its leadership and/or making them subordinate.

Like as in Yugoslavia it happened in Iraq.

Egypt, Lybia, Syria. Iran? All for the cause of freedom and democracy?

Oil? Russia will not let you have control of it in Iran, nor allow more terrorism at its borders.

All this must come home.



LA

[IP Man]

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

You speak truth.

I am at a loss to understand how a trained army leadership who must have studied how General Macarthur took over Japan, could have allowed their President disbandon the Iraq army and its political structures instead of only replacing its leadership and/or making them subordinate.

Like as in Yugoslavia it happened in Iraq.

Egypt, Lybia, Syria. Iran? All for the cause of freedom and democracy?

Oil? Russia will not let you have control of it in Iran, nor allow more terrorism at its borders.

All this must come home.



LA

Democracy cannot work when one faction is the majority. The minority faction had the power. The positions and leaders (Sunni) under the leaders still want it again. But the democratic process has to favor the majority Shiites.
Bush et al knew this. Their rhetoric about "democracy" was
just political baloney. They were giving the Shiites the power.
And hence destabilized the whole country.

All this baloney about giving "the people" back their country.
Look where this country is now, what state they are in.
All the camera footage showing street parties and celebrations.
Not a Sunni among them. This is the real world. Get real.

[Lazy afternoon]

Originally Posted by IP Man

Democracy cannot work when one faction is the majority. The minority faction had the power. The positions and leaders (Sunni) under the leaders still want it again. But the democratic process has to favor the majority Shiites.
Bush et al knew this. Their rhetoric about "democracy" was
just political baloney. They were giving the Shiites the power.
And hence destabilized the whole country.

All this baloney about giving "the people" back their country.
Look where this country is now, what state they are in.
All the camera footage showing street parties and celebrations.
Not a Sunni among them. This is the real world. Get real.

Well it has united the Shias of Iraq and Iran.

LA

[meshak]

Originally Posted by Ktoyou

You may love in a real way, sure, yet the greatest love comes after Grace. Kat

All Christians know that very well. However, most mainstream churches are dismissing that faith and works are inseparable. And it seems that this dismissal is delibrate.

[Mike C.]

Originally Posted by IP Man

Oh, but yes you are Mr. C. Because when you take out the strongman dictator of the country, and you give all power to the opposing faction, in this case the Shiites, you cause all sorts of mayhem and chaos. Which they never had before.
You screwed up Iraq's INFRASTRUCTURE. You screwed up their
GOVERNMENT. You screwed up their QUALITY OF LIFE. You screwed up their RELATIVE HARMONY BETWEEN FACTIONS.
And you say we are not responsible for their suicide attacks on each other? YOU get real. This is real life, kid.

If a police officer brings in a gang leader and its rival gang starts a gang war over it, is it the police officer's fault?

The first rule of a military man is to know your enemy. Saddam Hussein was an enemy. But the people of Iraq were never.
Take him out, take out his immediate underlings. And then give them back their country in one piece.

We should have gotten out nine years ago. We have made Iraq into an armed camp. Against each other.

Hindsight is always more clear. But this one was doomed from the start. Bush will go down as the worst president in the history of the U.S. This even over alcoholics and retards.

At the time I believe a strong argument was being made that pulling out would lead to immediate chaos as rival factions attempt to grab power. You seem to think they would have spontaneously formed a democratic and peaceful government?

I am willing to admit we may have handled things poorly over there (but I honestly don't know if it was feasible to do better, and opinionated ramblings don't influence me either way). Although, since we can't just set up our own form of government and rule there until it stabilizes (imagine the scandal that would cause among the world community) we are working with our hands tied behind our back, at its not at all clear the best way to go about such a thing as "nation building". Since we couldn't directly implement a new government, policing the nation until it becomes stable is a reasonable alternative. It's not a very easy thing to do, however.

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by meshak

All Christians know that very well. However, most mainstream churches are dismissing that faith and works are inseparable. And it seems that this dismissal is delibrate.

I've never heard that preached in any Protestant church. I've heard the distinction that works do not facilitate salvation, but never that the saved should not give to the poor, love their neighbor, etc.

[meshak]

Originally Posted by Town Heretic

I've never heard that preached in any Protestant church. I've heard the distinction that works do not facilitate salvation, but never that the saved should not give to the poor, love their neighbor, etc.

'
I know it is because they don't like to hear the whole truth. Jesus makes it clear that we honor His teachings and commandments.

Jesus says "if you love Me keep My commandments".

This is very basic principle, yet mainstream church are not informed. They are not informed because they rely on pastors' sermons to know the Bible. Pastors dont preach what their congregations dont want to hear. Their preachings are half truth, not the whole truth. That makes their faith hypocritical.

good day.

[graceandpeace]

Originally Posted by Tambora

And just WHEN do you say a person IS perfected by love??????
You seem to have been claiming that it is still on ongoing process for all of us.
At what point is one actually perfected in your eyes?
Can you name some folks who have actually reached that perfection?

When you enter the new covenant, and fully put away the old.

[graceandpeace]

Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[graceandpeace]

Originally Posted by Tambora

No, I am not mixing laws.
That's a false accusation.

yes you are. Abraham did NOT live in the new covenant....he looked forward to it; and, it is a CHANGED LAW.

[graceandpeace]

Originally Posted by Ktoyou

You have made some good points and I see you moving closer. If you would consider a sister in Christ? Faith comes first, it is what makes our hearts ready to embrace Christ and this leads to Grace.

You may love in a real way, sure, yet the greatest love comes after Grace. Kat

I agree faith comes first, it works by love, if one has a different faith, it works by a different way, so, I am not sure what you are referring to. IF one is in the true faith; they will be working by love....however, those whom claim that Abraham's love was perfected in his lifetime, are wrong. He lived under the old covenant, where it was not possible.

...which is also why he was not saved yet, and, likewise, why he never YET beat his sword into a pruning hook, as the new covenant demands all believers MUST, because NOW, it is available...yet, today, we see many denying faith; by their works that prove they are not of it.

It is not heresy to deny biblical faith, if you are truly ignorant of what it is, but it is heresy to deny it, once you know what it is.......we are here explaining how it works, and being told we are the one's ignorant, when in fact, the one's whom do not know how it fully works are the ignorant one's....,my prayer is that God will over look their ignorance, but that they also will come out of it.

[Town Heretic]

Originally Posted by meshak

'
I know it is because they don't like to hear the whole truth. Jesus makes it clear that we honor His teachings and commandments.

Jesus says "if you love Me keep My commandments".

This is very basic principle, yet mainstream church are not informed. They are not informed because they rely on pastors' sermons to know the Bible. Pastors dont preach what their congregations dont want to hear. Their preachings are half truth, not the whole truth. That makes their faith hypocritical.

good day.

That wasn't a response to my answer at all, just another blanket condemnation by you. You claimed:

...most mainstream churches are dismissing that faith and works are inseparable. And it seems that this dismissal is delibrate.

Let me make this clear and easy: set out the teaching you allege in ANY denomination's creed and/or teaching with a citation to it.