[Pierac]

Can I play too?

The one thing about the topic of free will, is how much this simple topic creates such discourse! I'm mean this topic really pisses people off! Yes, on both sides. For some strange reason it's very polarizing! Even my wife and I can not discuss this topic with out her getting worked up to the point it serves no purpose to continue. It's almost like a death blow for someone to consider... you do not have free will!

Take living in America... God bless America... Home of the free! Yet how free are you? You are "free" only as long as you remain politically correct, you pay your income taxes, you don't speak about a bomb as you go through airport security, and many other restrictions of "freedom" you have learned to accept. We have accepted these restrictions, and the loss of many rights, yet we still consider ourselves "free." Yes, it's all fun and games until the police showup! Really, how free do you feel driving with a cop on your tail? are you relaxed? Worried you might accidently exceed the speed? Dare you take the phone call while driving from the Doctor you have been trying to reach all week? How free do you feel... with the cop keeping his goverments will in check...

Man's will is a product of heredity and environment. We were all born sinners. None of us has the freedom "not to sin." Therefore, we are NOT truly free! The Bible says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

We must understand that man does not have "free will" even when he thinks he does. Why do corporations pay a million dollars per minute to advertise during the Super Bowl game? Because it works! Why does it work? Because if you repeat something often enough, people will respond to it and do what you want them to do -- buy your product. They will be influenced consciously or subconsciously, to change their mind and do something they hadn't intended to do. Their "free will" has been manipulated by someone else!

Sophisticated research has been carried out for many decades to develop methods to change peoples minds about a product or an issue, political or religious. We make our decisions based on a combination of what we see and experience as well as what is in our subconscious. Yet we have very little control over what is in our subconscious. Many circumstances in our lives are not under our control, yet these same circumstances, in conjunction with our subconscious mind, are a large part of our ultimate decision-making.

Many persons imagine that they are carrying out their own free will when, in fact, they are really carrying out the will of another who has a subtler intellect than their own.

Men have no greater control over their will than the captain of a sailing vessel has over the set of the sails. If the captain is not demented, he will set his sails to suit his course, and that is determined by the wind.

One way to understand this whole issue is to study the WORD of God -- The WORDS of God! The specific words in the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures are very meaningful and have, in many places, been mistranslated in different versions of the Bible. In Paul's letter to Timothy (2 Tim 1:13) he tells Timothy "to have a pattern of SOUND words."

For instance, God's "will" is often watered down to a mere "wish" or changed to only a "desire."

Yet Philippians 2:13 says that "it is God who is operating in us to WILL and to DO HIS good pleasure."


Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

paraphrased and adapted from L Day,
Paul

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

We choose our actions with our will, a faculty of the human mind. (Does anyone object? I may error here.)

If your subconscious makes the decision before you consciously think you make the decision, would your statement be true?

[bling]

There are lots of decisions we make that are purely the result of our genes and our environment.

We cannot “decide” not to ever sin and hold to that decision.

The only free will decisions we need to be able to make are those that will allow us to fulfill our earthly objective.

This all goes back to the objectives.

We should come to an understanding that God is the ultimate Love and true Love (Godly type Love) is unselfish, so God is the epitome of unselfishness.
Given this kind of “Love” it would compel God to make beings that could be like He is (Loving) for the sake of those beings that would become like He is (God is being totally unselfish in His creation).

The problem is there are things God cannot do. As it relates to man; God cannot create in man (make it instinctive to man [robotic]) with this Godly type Love, since that instinctive love would be like a robotic love. Also, God cannot force this Love on humans (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) since that is not Loving on God’s part nor would the love be a Godly type Love.

So again for the sake of those that will, God allows humans to make a very simple easy free will choice that remains a true choice (with at least a likely perceived alternative), to humbly accept God’s Charity or refuse God’s Charity.
God makes huge sacrifices in order to help those that are just willing make the right choice. Part of that sacrifice God makes are: Allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, people to go to hell and even sin itself.

[oatmeal]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

We choose our actions with our will, a faculty of the human mind. (Does anyone object? I may error here.)

I believe I make choices, but do not believe in freewill.

What is a "freewill choice"? As opposed to what a choice is without freewill.

What are the issues?

Free will choice.

we have the right and power and responsibility to exercise our wills, our decisions to act or not act in a particular direction. This ability to choose is ours to the extent we choose to exercise it.

Ultimately, we make every decision in our lives.

Of course, we acknowledge that there are both internal and external influences.

But we ultimately choose whether we will allow or not allow those influences to shape our decisions.

We have free will and in exercising our free will we make choices.

oatmeal

[Pierac]

Originally Posted by elohiym

If your subconscious makes the decision before you consciously think you make the decision, would your statement be true?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121450609076407973.html

What do you think about the quote... Coming from scientists in Germany, Norway and the U.S. "But these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg. This doesn't rule out free will, but it does make it implausible."

Many flaws in the study, but a fun read nontheless!


Paul

[COLA76]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I think the "could have done other than they did" part is people asking if it is okay if they sin, or if love is really love because people don't want to love.

No, I think it's a precise philosophical definition of freewill/undetermined choice.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by elohiym

If your subconscious makes the decision before you consciously think you make the decision, would your statement be true?

I don't know what YOU mean by subconscious. Is that psychology?

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by oatmeal

Free will choice.

we have the right and power and responsibility to exercise our wills, our decisions to act or not act in a particular direction. This ability to choose is ours to the extent we choose to exercise it.

Ultimately, we make every decision in our lives.

Of course, we acknowledge that there are both internal and external influences.

But we ultimately choose whether we will allow or not allow those influences to shape our decisions.

We have free will and in exercising our free will we make choices.

oatmeal

Okay. I think I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. I personally do not believe in freewill, and am still caught up in the debate about what freewill is. But I do agree that I make choices.

Which of my choices are not influenced by external (or internal for that matter) influences?

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by COLA76

No, I think it's a precise philosophical definition of freewill/undetermined choice.

I agree that among some there is agreement on this (that this is a good definition).

[COLA76]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Okay. I think I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. I personally do not believe in freewill, and am still caught up in the debate about what freewill is. But I do agree that I make choices.

Which of my choices are not influenced by external (or internal for that matter) influences?

I don't think any freewill proponent would say that there are decisions not affected by any internal of external influences. However, those influences do not fully determine the choices one makes.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by COLA76

I don't think any freewill proponent would say that there are decisions not affected by any internal of external influences. However, those influences do not fully determine the choices one makes.

Can you give an example of a choice that is not determined?

Then also can you give an example of a choice which is not made out of either internal or external influence/s?

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I don't know what YOU mean by subconscious. Is that psychology?

The psychology term is "unconscious mind."

"It might be defined as all those mental phenomena occurring within a person's mind which the person is not conscious of."

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by elohiym

The psychology term is "unconscious mind."

"It might be defined as all those mental phenomena occurring within a person's mind which the person is not conscious of."

Here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subconscious

subconscious is a psychology term.

[elohiym]

The internal contradiction and the unconscious sources of activity.

Geraskov, Emil Asenov

Journal of Psychology: Interdisciplinary and Applied, Vol 128(6), Nov 1994, 625-634.

Abstract

Suggests that contemporary psychology is rich in experimental material, including some studies that unequivocally confirm the existence of unconscious components of the human psyche. Those studies confirm many of the statements by Freud, but they also reveal new aspects of the unconscious psychic processes. Situations arise in human activities that place a person in conflict and are reflected in his/her psyche. If the internal contradiction is significant, it causes the appearance of a specific psychic formation that the author calls a "problem dominant." The problem dominant may be a positive or negative factor in the development of human personality.

Romans 7:18-20

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

[elohiym]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subconscious

subconscious is a psychology term.

"In everyday speech and popular writing, however, the term is very commonly encountered as a layperson's replacement for the unconscious mind..."

What I mean by "subconcious" is the "unconcious mind" speculated about and studied in psychology and evidenced through neuroscientific research.