[JonahofAkron]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

Moses lied to his followings because they were unaware people and not given by God to know Truth. Moses only gave the law. Grace and Truth came by Jesus, through His Spirit only when the time was right for them to be told about the Spirit. This means that there was a total absence of Truth in Moses deliverers. Simply because Grace and Truth came only with Jesus. re. John: 1 verse: 17. Grace and the deliverance of Truth were Jesus God given mission under the body of Christ. Jesus and only Jesus delivers Truth and He does so only through His Spirit which is the Spirit of Truth.

However although Jesus brought Grace and Truth, He did not give Truth to everyone. Most people (everyone except His disciples) were treated by Jesus in the same manner as Moses treated his followers. They all simply got the physically delivered law and the physically delivered scriptures.

These masses were not yet actualized to have communion with the Spirit of Jesus through their own hearts. Their hearts were waxed gross. They hearts were closed. They were dead to their hearts. They were unaware of their hearts or spirit. They were dead within. Indeed they were the dead who were mentioned in Jesus' statement, 'let the dead bury their dead'. re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16

They like you were led by their heads. They were physically/intellectually oriented. They gravitated to letters and schooling and not to the correct path to knowing Truth which is intuitively and directly from the Spirit of Jesus within their own hearts or spirits.

These unaware people who esteem the law and the written scriptures, were lost causes. They were the dead who were not given by God to know Truth. It was therefore befitting for them to receive untruths or lies so that they do not destroy the few others who came in Jesus' name to bring Truth to the few who were worthy and given by God to know Truth.

Therefore Jesus also did the same as Moses. He fool up those who esteem the law and the scriptures because they were just too powerful, violent, self-righteous and dangerous.

At times, when expedient, Jesus, like Moses) did not use great plainness of speech (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 12 & 13). Not because it was not absolutely expedient for all to know Truth. But because the Jews and others who were already persecuting and denying Him (their promised messiah) because he was introducing righteousness of God thst is without the law and the scriptures. And these Jews and others would have also accelerated His torture and crucifixion and so got rid of Him before He could finish his God given mission.

When Jesus was physically on earth, he delivered Truth only to His disciples, in private session among only them. Only they were given by God to know Truth (i.e. the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven). Only they had hearts that were not waxed gross.

Everyone else who Jesus encountered (i.e. except his disciples) had hearts or spirits that were waxed gross and they were therefore not given by God to know Truth re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16.

This means that Jesus did not deliver Truth to anyone else other than His disciples, privately among only them, for only they were given by God to know Truth.

And Paul did the same.

The unaware are called the dead in Jesus' statement, 'let the dead bury their dead'. Jesus showed disdain for them, not love or caring.

The dead (i.e. the unaware) are the ones who persecuted, denied, tortured and crucified Jesus. 'The dead' are also the ones who aided these things.

'The dead' are those who esteemed the law and the scriptures and rejected Jesus new appraoch to God's righteousness which is without the written law and the written scriptures.

It is they who did not want to have the end of the law and the scriptures for any one, not even those in Christ. They were violent and self righteous people who jealousy Jesus.

It is they who persecuted and denied Jesus (their promised Messiah) and then they aided the torture and crucifixion of Jesus.

These are the one who Paul dare not deliver Truth to in any direct form. In order for Paul to complete his God given mission in the body of Christ, he had to soften his passage by continuing to fool them up (i.e. he lied to them).

However since Paul was in Christ, he had God given liberty to transgress the law and he did no get sin but was glorified by God for faithfully achieved his God given mission in the body of Christ.

Rehab the harlot was also glorified by God for lying to those Moses-ians who wanted to catch up some Christians so as to persecute, deny, torture and possibly kill them.

.

What book did you read to get your crazy ideas? It certainly wasn't the Bible.

[YahuShuan]

No kidding! Rahab lying to the Moses-ians?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????? Yup, talk about being not of this world, I don't understand a thing G said? How does one respond to insanity? I haven't learned that one yet I reckon. "God given liberty to transgress the Torah"??????????? Paul?????????? OoooooooooooooooooTay then.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by JonahofAkron

What book did you read to get your crazy ideas? It certainly wasn't the Bible.

You miss out some. Read the full post:

Originally Posted by JonahofAkron

So Paul is a liar? And he wants us to drop the Scriptures? That's a new one.

Indeed if you already knew the New Thing, you would have been saved and delivered already. You would not be submersed and drowning in the letter and the law. You would be glorifying the Spirit of Jesus. Oh sleeping one! Wake up and smell the aroma of Truth. The kingdom of God in through your heart not through you head. Luke 17: verse: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Luke: 17 verse: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

You are looking to detect the kingdom of God through your physical senses of seeing and reading. You therefore miss it. It must be discerned though the intuitive faculties of your spirit. It is unseen, i.e. not physically detected. It is not detected through your physical senses i.e. not through your lettered and schooling skills. Your letters and schooling did not and cannot prepared you to detect God's kingdom of heaven. In fact those diminish your capacity to intuitively detect God's kingdom of heaven. Those make you more dead. You missed God's kingdom of heaven, totally.

Moses lied to his followings because they were unaware people and not given by God to know Truth re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16. Moses only gave the law. Grace and Truth came by Jesus, through His Spirit only when the time was right for them to be told about the Spirit. This means that there was a total absence of Truth in Moses deliverers. Simply because Grace and Truth came only with Jesus. re. John: 1 verse: 17. Grace and the deliverance of Truth were Jesus God given mission under the body of Christ. Jesus and only Jesus delivers Truth and He does so only through His Spirit which is the Spirit of Truth. All Truth is delivered by the Spirit of Truth. re. John: 16 verse: 13.

However although Jesus brought Grace and Truth, when he was physically on earth He did not give the path to Truth to everyone. The path to Truth is described as the mysteries of God kingdom of heaven. Most people (everyone except His disciples) were treated by Jesus in the same manner as Moses treated his followers. They all simply got the physically delivered law and the physically delivered scriptures. These masses where like Moses' followers, they were simply not given by God to know the path to Truth. Their hearts were all waxed gross. They were gross physically oriented people. They were dead to their spirit.

These masses were not yet actualized to have communion with the Spirit of Jesus through their own hearts. Their hearts were waxed gross. They hearts were closed. They were dead to their hearts. They were unaware of their hearts or spirit. They were dead within. re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16 Indeed they were the dead who were mentioned in Jesus' statement, 'let the dead bury their dead'.

They, like you, were led by their heads. Their hearts were waxed gross. Their hearts or spirits were sealed to them. They has no awareness of their own hearts or spirits. They were physically/intellectually oriented. That in they were only aware of their physical side. They gravitate to physical things like the law which was delivered in stone tables and the scriptures which were delivered in phsyically spoken words. Like you they knew nothing about intuiting things directly, individually, privately and silently from the Spirit through their own hearts. This was like telling them to forget about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. They knew that they must become lettered and schooled in order to have the capacity to meet the needs of tomorrow. They did not discern wisdom in Matthews: 6 verses: 25 to 34, far less to be guided by it. Although they were told that the kingdom of God is found within their hearts or spirit they could not and did not get this Truth for their hearts were waxed gross. They looked for it in the law and in letters like the scriptures. Just like you.

Indeed like you those unaware people gravitated to letters and schooling and not to the correct path to knowing Truth which is intuitively and directly from the Spirit of Jesus within their own hearts or spirits. They could not and did not search their heart to discern the Spirit which God sent there. They search and relied on letters.

Those unaware people who esteem the law and the written scriptures, were lost causes. They were the dead who were not given by God to know Truth. It was therefore befitting for them to receive untruths or lies so that they do not destroy the few others who came in Jesus' name to bring Truth to the few who were worthy and given by God to know Truth.

Therefore Jesus also did the same as Moses. He fool up those who esteem the law and the scriptures because they were just too powerful, violent, self-righteous and dangerous. Jesus simple told them what they wanted to hear so that he could be around for enough time to tell others and show others, what He wanted them to know and witness.

At times, when expedient, Jesus, like Moses) did not use great plainness of speech (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 12 & 13). Not because it was not absolutely expedient for all to know Truth. But because the Jews and others who were already persecuting and denying Him (their promised messiah) because he was introducing righteousness of God that is without the law and the scriptures. This was the the lord for the Jews. They were not prepared to have Jesus dismiss their laws and their scriptures.

However the dismissal of the law and the scriptures are the essential basis of Jesus new message, the New Testament, which is a life under precisely what the Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do as discern within one's own heart or spirit. And these Jews were violent, self righteous and powerful. They would have also accelerated His torture and crucifixion and so got rid of Him before He could finish his God given mission. At that time, when Jesus came among them, it was appropriate to reveal the Truth in clarity. However the principalities and powers were too strong. Truth would inevitably erode their dominance of earth.

When Truth rules on earth intuits will be empowered to leadership every where in every disciples. Intellects, like your self, will be downgraded or totally eradicated under the will and grace of God. Back then the Jews were the reigning intellectuals and they rules to powerfully. Then Peter continued this domination of the wisdom of the world by intellectuals. Peter and company are intellectuals, other wise called Satan. Paul was an intuit. He was undermined. He was not relevant to earth until a little while ago. It is now Paul's time on earth. Peter's run has ended.

When Jesus was physically on earth, he delivered Truth only to His disciples, in private session among only them. Only they were given by God to know Truth (i.e. the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven). Only they had hearts that were not waxed gross.

Everyone else who Jesus encountered (i.e. except his disciples) had hearts or spirits that were waxed gross and they were therefore not given by God to know Truth re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16.

This means that Jesus did not deliver Truth to anyone else other than His disciples, privately among only them, for only they were given by God to know Truth.

And Paul did the same.

The unaware are called the dead in Jesus' statement, 'let the dead bury their dead'. Jesus showed disdain for them, not love or caring.

The dead (i.e. the unaware) are the ones who persecuted, denied, tortured and crucified Jesus. 'The dead' are also the ones who aided these things.

'The dead' are those who esteemed the law and the scriptures and rejected Jesus new appraoch to God's righteousness which is without the written law and the written scriptures.

It is they who did not want to have the end of the law and the scriptures for any one, not even those in Christ. They were violent and self righteous people who jealousy Jesus.

It is they who persecuted and denied Jesus (their promised Messiah) and then they aided the torture and crucifixion of Jesus.

These are the one who Paul dare not deliver Truth to in any direct form. In order for Paul to complete his God given mission in the body of Christ, he had to soften his passage by continuing to fool them up (i.e. he lied to them).

However since Paul was in Christ, he had God given liberty to transgress the law and he did no get sin but was glorified by God for faithfully achieved his God given mission in the body of Christ.

Rehab the harlot was also glorified by God for lying to those Moses-ians who wanted to catch up some Christians so as to persecute, deny, torture and possibly kill them.

You claimed that only a few Jews, the leaders of that time, denied Jesus. Fact is if you ask any Jew today they will tell you that Jesus was not the son of God, but simply another prophet. Is this not a denial of Jesus by the great majority of Jews? Why do you make up things simply to support your obviously tattered and unholy beliefs.

Face the fact that the Jews still do scale down Jesus so that He could fit their mold (i.e their own idea of Him). They did not and do not accept Jesus as he is projected to be in the KJV N.T. 'You are such a lemon used car sales man'. However you were detected and exposed.

Repent according to you beliefs and drop your seemingly lemon used car sales man approaches to promoting your erroneous ideas which are not supported by Truth in the KJV N.T.

Come on man cease and desist your slaughter of scriptures under the pretension that you esteem the scriptures. You are simply supporting your own ideas and conveniently corrupting scriptures as you go along.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Intellectual

Should a believer obey the Law?

Should a believer be led by the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe the Holy Spirit would lead someone to break the law.

Thoughts?

An example of the Law and the "Spirit of the law" is;

If your boss gives you a job to do and he says that you have 30hrs. in order to finish the job but you know it will only take you half that much time. You don't go by the law of the 30hrs. You do the work you were assigned and then you report to your boss that you have finished so that you can be given another assignment. Some people would look at the assignment and devise a way for it to take 30hrs. and use the extra time to goof off.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by YahuShuan

No kidding! Rahab lying to the Moses-ians?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????? Yup, talk about being not of this world, I don't understand a thing G said? How does one respond to insanity? I haven't learned that one yet I reckon. "God given liberty to transgress the Torah"??????????? Paul?????????? OoooooooooooooooooTay then.

It is not the letter that is important to my readers for they seek Truth. It is the spirit in the event.

You chose to focus only on the accuracy of the letter of that statement. This is a clear testimony of how one's preoccupation with letter discernment killeth.

Every now and then I have to do this thing, to let readers know that you are man of the law, letters and schooling. Therefore, you are not a man of grace and being in Christ is not for you. You are are apt to show pettiness.

My primary focus was not to be 'letter' correct. This is the important message:

Rahab is mentioned in (James 2:25). She is cited as a heroine of faith (Heb 11:31), and as one who was justified and glorified by God although she lied. This is the fact. She transgressed the law. She lied because this is what the Spirit had in mind for her to do, as discerned within her own heart or spirit, at that time.

She was justified and glorified by God because she unconditionally obey precisely what the Spirit had in mind for her to say and do, as discerned within her own heart, even if she had to tell a lie i.e. even if she had to transgress the law.

She was justified to transgress the law only because she was led to do so by the Spirit. And for this too she was glorified by God.

And what happened? Rehab served God by being led privately, individually and intuitively through an unseen path way that required her to transgress the law. This is the Christian way.

This was a demonstration of Rehab's faith in the unseen Spirit of Jesus which was now her Lord. This faith led her into works. This faith led her to obey precisely what the Spirit had in mind for her to say and do, as discerned within her own heart, even if she had to tell a lie i.e. even if she had to transgress the law. This made her a child of God and a Christian. One who was saved and delivered.

Anddddddd, she was a prostitute. She coveted and encouraged adultery. Therefore if she did adultery, coveting, fornication etc., because it was the what the Spirit had in mind for her to do, as discerned within her own heart, she was glorified by God, she was a child of God, even though she transgressed the law of adultery and coveting and fornication etc. She not only remained in righteousness with God, she was glorified by God, for serving His will through unconditional obedience to precisely what the Spirit had in mind for her to pray for, say and do, even if she had to transgress the law. This is what being Christian is all about.

All that mombo-jumbo made up stuff that is upheld in traditional Christianity to be Christian, leads invariably to many being called to traditional Christianity and few being chosen. You who are part of all that is dead in your waters. There is no other way to deliver this Truth but straight and up front!

Those who believe in Jesus has God given justification to transgress the law re. The Acts: 13 verse: 39.

How do one know Jesus now? Now the Lord is that Spirit of Jesus which God sent into the hearts of those under the law so that they might become adopted children of God. And wheresoever the Spirit is, there is liberty (to transgress the law). re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 17 and Galatians: 4 verses: 5 & 6

Therefore to believe in Jesus now, is to believe in the Spirit of Jesus. Now we must know Jesus in His Spirit.

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by sky.

An example of the Law and the "Spirit of the law" is;

If your boss gives you a job to do and he says that you have 30hrs. in order to finish the job but you know it will only take you half that much time. You don't go by the law of the 30hrs. You do the work you were assigned and then you report to your boss that you have finished so that you can be given another assignment. Some people would look at the assignment and devise a way for it to take 30hrs. and use the extra time to goof off.

Hey, if your boss is a man then how can your Lord be the Spirit? A man cannot please two masters. Your idea can be delivered only to those who were not given by God to know Truth. That seem to be real plenty people on earth at this time. And look you too buy into that idea. Are you a leading member of that group? I told you before they will real concur with your ideas. However authentic Christians will not.

You do know that Paul delivered to those who were not given by God to know Truth as well as to those who were given by God to know Truth. Paul will not run an idea like yours above, by some one who is given by God to know Truth. He will tell those who are given by God to know Truth that he must be led unconditionally by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for him to pray for, say and do, as discerned within his own heart or spirit even if he has to drop that boss.

Even in traditional Christianity some priests sever their ties to men who can be their bosses so that they can be led by the Spirit. You next move would probably be to project that if your pope tell you to do somethings that you can finish in half the time you should not take the time you save, for your self, simply because the pope gave you more time than you needed.

I listen to the Spirit, not the pope. And the Spirit know very accurately, before hand, how long things will take.

Put back your idea into the book from where it came.

You seem to be trying to sneak in your little man gods.


Hey sky do not take this personally. I take every opportunity to clear up misunderstanding of Truth. The unaware are given many follies (and plain untruths) in scriptures. Because they are not given by God to know Truth. My interest is not them. My interest is in those who are given by God to know Truth.

Your statement may be making a very good point. However if it leans to that which is delivered to the unaware (i.e. those who are not given by God to know Truth). I must look after the interest of aspiring Christians (i.e. those who are given by God to know Truth). I will focus only what an aspiring Christian must know with respect to your statement. This is my God given mission in the body of Christ, at this time. I am not focused on the unaware. Peter and company is in charge of the unaware and theirs is the Moses-ian forum.

[JonahofAkron]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

Hey, if your boss is a man then how can your Lord be the Spirit? A man cannot please two masters. Your idea can be delivered only to those who were not given by God to know Truth. That seem to be real plenty people on earth at this time. And look you too buy into that idea. Are you a leading member of that group? I told you before they will real concur with your ideas. However authentic Christians will not.

You do know that Paul delivered to those who were not given by God to know Truth as well as to those who were given by God to know Truth. Paul will not run an idea like yours above, by some one who is given by God to know Truth. He will tell those who are given by God to know Truth that he must be led unconditionally by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for him to pray for, say and do, as discerned within his own heart or spirit even if he has to drop that boss.

Even in traditional Christianity some priests sever their ties to men who can be their bosses so that they can be led by the Spirit. You next move would probably be to project that if your pope tell you to do somethings that you can finish in half the time you should not take the time you save, for your self, simply because the pope gave you more time than you needed.

I listen to the Spirit, not the pope. And the Spirit know very accurately, before hand, how long things will take.

Put back your idea into the book from where it came.

You seem to be trying to sneak in your little man gods.


Hey sky do not take this personally. I take every opportunity to clear up misunderstanding of Truth. The unaware are given many follies (and plain untruths) in scriptures. Because they are not given by God to know Truth. My interest is not them. My interest is in those who are given by God to know Truth.

Your statement may be making a very good point. However if it leans to that which is delivered to the unaware (i.e. those who are not given by God to know Truth). I must look after the interest of aspiring Christians (i.e. those who are given by God to know Truth). I will focus only what an aspiring Christian must know with respect to your statement. This is my God given mission in the body of Christ, at this time. I am not focused on the unaware. Peter and company is in charge of the unaware and theirs is the Moses-ian forum.

Why do you ignore the allegory? When you dismiss the point of the argument, no one can take your lengthy post seriously.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

An example of the Law and the "Spirit of the law" is;

If your boss gives you a job to do and he says that you have 30hrs. in order to finish the job but you know it will only take you half that much time. You don't go by the law of the 30hrs. You do the work you were assigned and then you report to your boss that you have finished so that you can be given another assignment. Some people would look at the assignment and devise a way for it to take 30hrs. and use the extra time to goof off.

Good point. The spirit of the law though, is different than the Spirit of God.

[YahuShuan]

Originally Posted by JonahofAkron

Why do you ignore the allegory? When you dismiss the point of the argument, no one can take your lengthy post seriously.

Like i said, "OoooooooooooooooooTay"

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Good point. The spirit of the law though, is different than the Spirit of God.

I guess I was trying to join the two. The Holy Spirit is in our conscience now.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by sky.

I guess I was trying to join the two. The Holy Spirit is in our conscience now.

I was just shown something:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...90#post2960190

[Gurucam]

Originally Posted by JonahofAkron

Why do you ignore the allegory? When you dismiss the point of the argument, no one can take your lengthy post seriously.

I though I addressed the point.

You allegory is applicable for those who are looking for a management and guidance system among those who are not given by God to Know Truth. It is good and appropriate for them.

Such a allegory would be appropriate for one who is led by his own intellectualizing and the intellectualizing of others.

It is not (at all) suited to those who are given by God to know Truth. They are intuits. The must remain free to be led by the Spirit 24-7. They are Christians when they led by the Spirit 24 -7 as their way of life.

If Christians are in an organization this individual right (to be led by the Spirit 24-7) has to be respected as normal standard modus operandi.

One who is led by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for him to pray for, say and do, as discerned within his own heart will not find himself in a situation which can be guided by your allegory.

However an unaware person can find you allegory very helpful. Also unaware people who manages unaware people will find your allegory very useful.

Christians are very few on earth. So the very overwhelming majority (i.e. all who are not Christians) would find wisdom in your allegory.

Indeed many are called Christians on earth today but few are authentic Christians. Few are the real things.

Christians cannot be under bosses who would not allow them absolute liberty to be led by the Spirit as discerned within their own individual hearts.

Christians can be only under bosses who are themselves Christians and therefore also know that even employees who are Christians can only be led by the Spirit as discerned within their own hearts.

Christians bosses trust the intuitions of their employees. Christians bosses request things from their employees who are also Christians without setting detailed deadlines.

Christians leaders do not expect any particular outcome from any actions. They do not seek their own end to things, instead they seek the end that is line with the will of God. Christians simply serve in accordance with precisely what the Spirit has in mind for his to pray for say and do as discerned within their own hearts. They trust that the end will be best possible one that can come to them. They trust that the end will be better than any end that they can request or seek.

This approach lend it self to many small enterprises in which one or a few individual Christan and their particular related gifts of the Spirit are central to the services offered.

The idea of big conglomerates is of Moses-ians orientations. These destroy the spiritual awareness and individual creative actualization of most all employees. The god in those establishments are the aims and aspiration of the corporations and generally the bottom line. These are false gods. Like idol worshiping.

Unless these corporations are owned and operate by people from truly spiritual cultures, these corporations are not focused on the individual development of: their staff, their down stream suppliers and/or that of their customers. In fact it is in their interest to keep all of these people unaware so that they can dominate and lead them in the direction of protecting and achieving their corporate goals. These corporations will negotiate the lowest possible price from their supplier often with no regard to the need and circumstances of the employees of these suppliers. And seek to get the most mark up (profits) from their sales. For these corporations, employees and all other inputs are simply factor of production which must be exploited to the most profound letter of their corporate aims and aspirations.

I am sorry to say that authentic Christians would not be involved in any part or area of traditional western economic system of management and enterprise (which include many traditional Christian churches etc.).

Indeed Christians (authentic ones) cannot be managers or other participants of endeavors under the conventional Capital system which is rooted in, among other things, bottom line management which includes maximizing profits any which way to the detriment, if necessary, of suppliers, staff and customers and any one else.

A whole lot can be say about this. However the post can get to be too long.

I hope that my reply address your question properly, even if you do not agree with the ideas expressed.

[JonahofAkron]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

You miss out some. Read the full post:

I missed nothing. You admit that you think it ok for Paul to lie.

Indeed if you already knew the New Thing, you would have been saved and delivered already. You would not be submersed and drowning in the letter and the law. You would be glorifying the Spirit of Jesus. Oh sleeping one! Wake up and smell the aroma of Truth. The kingdom of God in through your heart not through you head. Luke 17: verse: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Luke: 17 verse: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

How can you claim that Paul is a liar and base any teaching you have on his words? How can you do the same for Moses? Anything written in Torah is (in your perception) a basis for the 'NT', so I'm confused about anything you believe.

You are looking to detect the kingdom of God through your physical senses of seeing and reading. You therefore miss it. It must be discerned though the intuitive faculties of your spirit. It is unseen, i.e. not physically detected. It is not detected through your physical senses i.e. not through your lettered and schooling skills. Your letters and schooling did not and cannot prepared you to detect God's kingdom of heaven. In fact those diminish your capacity to intuitively detect God's kingdom of heaven. Those make you more dead. You missed God's kingdom of heaven, totally.

Moses lied to his followings because they were unaware people and not given by God to know Truth re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16. Moses only gave the law. Grace and Truth came by Jesus, through His Spirit only when the time was right for them to be told about the Spirit. This means that there was a total absence of Truth in Moses deliverers. Simply because Grace and Truth came only with Jesus. re. John: 1 verse: 17. Grace and the deliverance of Truth were Jesus God given mission under the body of Christ. Jesus and only Jesus delivers Truth and He does so only through His Spirit which is the Spirit of Truth. All Truth is delivered by the Spirit of Truth. re. John: 16 verse: 13.

However although Jesus brought Grace and Truth, when he was physically on earth He did not give the path to Truth to everyone. The path to Truth is described as the mysteries of God kingdom of heaven. Most people (everyone except His disciples) were treated by Jesus in the same manner as Moses treated his followers. They all simply got the physically delivered law and the physically delivered scriptures. These masses where like Moses' followers, they were simply not given by God to know the path to Truth. Their hearts were all waxed gross. They were gross physically oriented people. They were dead to their spirit.

These masses were not yet actualized to have communion with the Spirit of Jesus through their own hearts. Their hearts were waxed gross. They hearts were closed. They were dead to their hearts. They were unaware of their hearts or spirit. They were dead within. re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16 Indeed they were the dead who were mentioned in Jesus' statement, 'let the dead bury their dead'.

They, like you, were led by their heads. Their hearts were waxed gross. Their hearts or spirits were sealed to them. They has no awareness of their own hearts or spirits. They were physically/intellectually oriented. That in they were only aware of their physical side. They gravitate to physical things like the law which was delivered in stone tables and the scriptures which were delivered in phsyically spoken words. Like you they knew nothing about intuiting things directly, individually, privately and silently from the Spirit through their own hearts. This was like telling them to forget about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself. They knew that they must become lettered and schooled in order to have the capacity to meet the needs of tomorrow. They did not discern wisdom in Matthews: 6 verses: 25 to 34, far less to be guided by it. Although they were told that the kingdom of God is found within their hearts or spirit they could not and did not get this Truth for their hearts were waxed gross. They looked for it in the law and in letters like the scriptures. Just like you.

Indeed like you those unaware people gravitated to letters and schooling and not to the correct path to knowing Truth which is intuitively and directly from the Spirit of Jesus within their own hearts or spirits. They could not and did not search their heart to discern the Spirit which God sent there. They search and relied on letters.

Those unaware people who esteem the law and the written scriptures, were lost causes. They were the dead who were not given by God to know Truth. It was therefore befitting for them to receive untruths or lies so that they do not destroy the few others who came in Jesus' name to bring Truth to the few who were worthy and given by God to know Truth.

Therefore Jesus also did the same as Moses. He fool up those who esteem the law and the scriptures because they were just too powerful, violent, self-righteous and dangerous. Jesus simple told them what they wanted to hear so that he could be around for enough time to tell others and show others, what He wanted them to know and witness.

At times, when expedient, Jesus, like Moses) did not use great plainness of speech (re. 2 Corinthians: 3 verse: 12 & 13). Not because it was not absolutely expedient for all to know Truth. But because the Jews and others who were already persecuting and denying Him (their promised messiah) because he was introducing righteousness of God that is without the law and the scriptures. This was the the lord for the Jews. They were not prepared to have Jesus dismiss their laws and their scriptures.

However the dismissal of the law and the scriptures are the essential basis of Jesus new message, the New Testament, which is a life under precisely what the Spirit has in mind for one to pray for, say and do as discern within one's own heart or spirit. And these Jews were violent, self righteous and powerful. They would have also accelerated His torture and crucifixion and so got rid of Him before He could finish his God given mission. At that time, when Jesus came among them, it was appropriate to reveal the Truth in clarity. However the principalities and powers were too strong. Truth would inevitably erode their dominance of earth.

When Truth rules on earth intuits will be empowered to leadership every where in every disciples. Intellects, like your self, will be downgraded or totally eradicated under the will and grace of God. Back then the Jews were the reigning intellectuals and they rules to powerfully. Then Peter continued this domination of the wisdom of the world by intellectuals. Peter and company are intellectuals, other wise called Satan. Paul was an intuit. He was undermined. He was not relevant to earth until a little while ago. It is now Paul's time on earth. Peter's run has ended.

When Jesus was physically on earth, he delivered Truth only to His disciples, in private session among only them. Only they were given by God to know Truth (i.e. the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven). Only they had hearts that were not waxed gross.

Everyone else who Jesus encountered (i.e. except his disciples) had hearts or spirits that were waxed gross and they were therefore not given by God to know Truth re. Matthews: 13 verses: 9 to 16.

This means that Jesus did not deliver Truth to anyone else other than His disciples, privately among only them, for only they were given by God to know Truth.

And Paul did the same.

The unaware are called the dead in Jesus' statement, 'let the dead bury their dead'. Jesus showed disdain for them, not love or caring.

The dead (i.e. the unaware) are the ones who persecuted, denied, tortured and crucified Jesus. 'The dead' are also the ones who aided these things.

'The dead' are those who esteemed the law and the scriptures and rejected Jesus new appraoch to God's righteousness which is without the written law and the written scriptures.

It is they who did not want to have the end of the law and the scriptures for any one, not even those in Christ. They were violent and self righteous people who jealousy Jesus.

It is they who persecuted and denied Jesus (their promised Messiah) and then they aided the torture and crucifixion of Jesus.

These are the one who Paul dare not deliver Truth to in any direct form. In order for Paul to complete his God given mission in the body of Christ, he had to soften his passage by continuing to fool them up (i.e. he lied to them).

However since Paul was in Christ, he had God given liberty to transgress the law and he did no get sin but was glorified by God for faithfully achieved his God given mission in the body of Christ.

Rehab the harlot was also glorified by God for lying to those Moses-ians who wanted to catch up some Christians so as to persecute, deny, torture and possibly kill them.

You claimed that only a few Jews, the leaders of that time, denied Jesus. Fact is if you ask any Jew today they will tell you that Jesus was not the son of God, but simply another prophet. Is this not a denial of Jesus by the great majority of Jews? Why do you make up things simply to support your obviously tattered and unholy beliefs.

Face the fact that the Jews still do scale down Jesus so that He could fit their mold (i.e their own idea of Him). They did not and do not accept Jesus as he is projected to be in the KJV N.T. 'You are such a lemon used car sales man'. However you were detected and exposed.

Repent according to you beliefs and drop your seemingly lemon used car sales man approaches to promoting your erroneous ideas which are not supported by Truth in the KJV N.T.

Come on man cease and desist your slaughter of scriptures under the pretension that you esteem the scriptures. You are simply supporting your own ideas and conveniently corrupting scriptures as you go along.

Nothing you say makes sense.

[JonahofAkron]

Originally Posted by Gurucam

I though I made the point.

You allegory is applicable for those who are looking for a management and guidance system among those who are not given by God to Know Truth. It is good and appropriate for them.

Such a allegory would be appropriate for one who is led by his own intellectualizing and the intellectualizing of others.

It is not (at all) suited to those who are given by God to know Truth. They are intuits. The must remain free to be led by the Spirit 24-7.

If Christians are in an organization this individual right (to be led by the Spirit 24-7) has to be respected as normal standard modus operandi.

One who is led by precisely what the Spirit has in mind for him to pray for, say and do, as discerned within his own heart will not find himself in a situation which can be guided by your allegory.

However an unaware person can find you allegory very helpful.

Christians are very few on earth. So the very overwhelming majority (i.e. all who are not Christians) would find wisdom in your allegory.

Indeed many are called Christians on earth today but few are authentic Christians. Few are the real things.

Christians cannot be under bosses who would not allow them absolute liberty to be led by the Spirit as discerned within their own individual hearts.

Christians can be only under bosses who are themselves Christians and therefore also know that even employees who are Christians can only be led by the Spirit as discerned within their own hearts.

Christians bosses trust the intuitions of their employees. Christians bosses request things from their employees who are also Christians without setting detailed deadlines.

Christians leaders do not expect any particular outcome from any actions. They do not seek their own end to things they seek the end that is line with the will of God. Christians simply serve in accordance with precisely what the Spirit has in mind for his to pray for say and do as discerned within their own hearts.

This approach lend it self to many small enterprises in which one or a few individual Christan and their particular related gifts of the Spirit are central to the services offered.

The idea of big conglomerates is of Moses-ians orientations. These destroy the spiritual awareness and individual creative actualization of most all employees. The god in those establishments are the aims and aspiration of the cooperation and generally the bottom line.

Unless these corporations are owned and operate by people from truly spiritual cultures, these corporations are not focused on the individual development of their staff or their down stream suppliers or that of their customers. In fact it is their interest to keep all of these people unaware so that they can dominate and lead them in the direction of protecting and achieving their corporate goals.

I am sorry to say that authentic Christians would not be involved in any part or area of traditional western economic system of management and enterprise.

Indeed Christians cannot managers or other participants of endeavors under the conventional Capital system which is rooted in, among other things, bottom line management.

A whole lot can be say about this. However the post can get to be too long.

I hope that my reply address your question properly, even if you do not agree with the ideas expressed.

..........

[YahuShuan]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

I was just shown something:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...90#post2960190

Me, just now..."Unbelief, is that we disobey, the fruit of Unbelief is disobedience!" That's 'nuf for me tonight