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February 4th, 2012, 11:37 AM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
interesting

One response would be that the authors of the Gospels "said" Jesus placed but one serious question to His Disciples "But who do you say that I am?"

So then my question to you is - Why do you place faith in the authors of the Gospels?
I don't...HE impressed upon me to regard the authors of the Gospels. Without that the Gospels are no more impressive than the works of Josephus.

I had read parts of the Bible numerous times with no serious regard...Until HE impressed upon me that it was time I did; they had no effect whatsoever.





Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
~Leonard Cohen



To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.
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Thumbs up February 4th, 2012, 11:43 AM

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Originally Posted by TomO View Post
I don't...HE impressed upon me to regard the authors of the Gospels. Without that the Gospels are no more impressive than the works of Josephus.

I had read parts of the Bible numerous times with no serious regard...Until HE impressed upon me that it was time I did; they had no effect whatsoever.
Yup



   
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February 4th, 2012, 11:46 AM

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Originally Posted by TomO View Post
Can't really answer I'm afraid because my Faith is based upon my experience. That is to say I have recieved that which to me is proof enough. Christian Apologetics may provide some bolstering to Faith but it is not the basis in it. Neither is my Faith based upon "what I see around me" from day to day but rather my worldview is shaped by what I have recieved.

Experience is totally subjective, therefore, what I have recieved is pointless and meaningless to you.

The fact is either I am insane and had some sort of psychotic break or my Faith is well founded. These are the only two options open in my case. I don't care which one you choose.

OUR LORD placed but one serious question to HIS Disciples; upon which is grounded everything:

Mark 8:29
"But who do you say that I am?"

Beyond that all the rest of the doctrines and apologetics are pointless.
sometimes - some questions bear repeating

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
interesting

One response would be that the authors of the Gospels "said" Jesus placed but one serious question to His Disciples "But who do you say that I am?"

So then my question to you is - Why do you place faith in the authors of the Gospels?

You seem to believe that the authors of the Gospels were truthful and accurate - Why?
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I don't...HE impressed upon me to regard the authors of the Gospels. Without that the Gospels are no more impressive than the works of Josephus.

I had read parts of the Bible numerous times with no serious regard...Until HE impressed upon me that it was time I did; they had no effect whatsoever.



   
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February 4th, 2012, 11:51 AM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
What is the christian apologetic evidence that convinces you that christianity is true?
Truthfully, I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.



   
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February 4th, 2012, 11:55 AM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Truthfully, I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.
Yes...that is one way to explain it away.





Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
~Leonard Cohen



To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.
~Ted Nugent
   
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February 4th, 2012, 11:57 AM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Truthfully, I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.
The question is - what would you have become if you grew up instead in a land where you were surrounded by impressive and impactful muslims or jews or buddhists?

Could you say with 100% certainty that now you would not instead be a muslim or jew or buddhist?



   
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February 4th, 2012, 12:02 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
sometimes - some questions bear repeating
Perhaps it's not so much repetition as it is proper phrasing.





Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
~Leonard Cohen



To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.
~Ted Nugent
   
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February 4th, 2012, 12:04 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
The question is - what would you have become if you grew up instead in a land where you were surrounded by impressive and impactful muslims or jews or buddhists?

Could you say with 100% certainty that now you would not instead be a muslim or jew or buddhist?
Considering I grew up laregely devoid of organized Religion, settling upon a New Age type mysticism out of preference shaped by my own investigation, until HE grabbed me....Nah.

That having been said I do believe that the culture one is raised in plays a great deal in what one is willing to accept due to the implications it may have regarding things that one may hold dear. That, however, is not quite the same thing now is it?

BTW...100% certainty is a silly requirement. One could ask that if my Father had been exposed to one to many X-Rays would I be sure with 100% certaintly that I would not be born with two heads and recieve a similar answer.(No matter how unlikely the implied outcome would be).





Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
~Leonard Cohen



To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic.
~Ted Nugent
   
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February 4th, 2012, 02:04 PM

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Originally Posted by TomO View Post
100% certainty is a silly requirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Truthfully, I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
The question is - what would you have become if you grew up instead in a land where you were surrounded by impressive and impactful muslims or jews or buddhists?

Could you say with 100% certainty that now you would not instead be a muslim or jew or buddhist?
Ok, forget 100% certainty, If you would have grown up in an environment that was mostly muslim, jewish or buddhist would there have been a 50% chance that you most likely would have become a muslim, jew or buddhist?

So, what is more determinative - Your Jesus or Your formative environment?



   
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February 4th, 2012, 02:18 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Ok, forget 100% certainty, If you would have grown up in an environment that was mostly muslim, jewish or buddhist would there have been a 50% chance that you most likely would have become a muslim, jew or buddhist?

So, what is more determinative - Your Jesus or Your formative environment?
In light of such questions christians often seek comfort and reassurance in verses like

Acts 17:26-27

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.



   
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February 4th, 2012, 02:39 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Simply stating christian doctrines/beliefs does not equal
proving that those beliefs are true.

Simply recounting miraculous events does not prove that
those "so called" miraculous events are historically true.
Okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
A miraculous event is proven true after all
non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
Unless that miraculous event occurred through natural processes.

Let's say we discovered the parting of the Red Sea actually happened and the natural mechanism that produced that phenomenon was identified. Believers and non-believers would still be arguing whether or not it was a miracle. No one would argue it somehow wasn't just because we figured out what natural processes caused it.

We'd just be pushing the "miracle" part of that back a little closer to the question of whether or not God caused that to happen or whether it was just a freakish, random natural event.

Or the plague in Numbers 11. God was angry because folks were complaining about not having lots of meat to eat, like they did in Egypt, where they were slaves. So He dropped a bunch of quail on them. And what did they do? Ate 'em. And got sick. And died.

This was called a curse in the bible, a plague sent against them by God. But if you read Numbers 11 carefully you'll figure out God didn't just send a bunch of quail to these people...he dumped a bunch of dead quail on them. Which would be why they were laying around two cubits deep, all around the camp. Instead of, you know, flying away or something.

Folks spent two days gathering dead birds. In the desert. Then eating them.

So...yeah, they got sick.

Any less a plague sent by God, knowing how and why exactly those folks got so sick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Name a uniquely christian doctrine/belief (the golden rule is not uniquely christian) that has been proven true.

The answer is none because proof rules out faith which is a
key component of christianity.
Okay, how do you prove a doctrine/belief in the first place? Can you provide a non-Christian one that has been proven? So we have an example to go by?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Name a miraculous event in the bible that has been proven true.

The answer is none because proof rules out faith which is a
key component of christianity.
Nonsense. Name something proven that you don't have faith in. In fact, just name something proven. I probably have faith in it in some way and then I can easily illustrate how this is wrong.

Say, gravity. Proven to exist? Yes? Cool.

Now, I have faith that gravity will remain a product of solid [edit: oops] matter. So when I wake up in the morning, assuming I wake up on the same planet I went to sleep on, I have faith it'll be there when I get out of bed to prevent my shooting off through the wall and out into space when I throw my feet off the bed.

Proof doesn't eliminate faith at all. In fact, it makes it a lot easier.




Last edited by MaryContrary; February 5th, 2012 at 02:39 PM..
   
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February 4th, 2012, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by MaryContrary View Post
..the plague in Numbers 11. God was angry because folks were complaining about not having lots of meat to eat, like they did in Egypt, where they were slaves. So He dropped a bunch of quail on them. And what did they do? Ate 'em. And got sick. And died.
Why Are Birds Falling From the Sky?

The ground truth about this week's bird deaths in Arkansas and elsewhere.

Charles Choi

for National Geographic News

Published January 6, 2011

A mysterious rain of thousands of dead birds darkened New Year's Eve in Arkansas, and this week similar reports streamed in from Louisiana, Sweden, and elsewhere.

But the in-air bird deaths aren't due to some apocalyptic plague or insidious experiment—they happen all the time, scientists say. The recent buzz, it seems, was mainly hatched by media hype.

At any given time there are "at least ten billion birds in North America ... and there could be as much as 20 billion—and almost half die each year due to natural causes," said ornithologist Greg Butcher, director of bird conservation for the National Audubon Society in Washington, D.C.

But what causes dead birds to fall from the sky en masse? The Arkansas case points to two common culprits: loud noises and crashes.

Beginning at roughly 11:30 p.m. on New Year's Eve Arkansas wildlife officers started hearing reports of birds falling from the sky in a square-mile area of the city of Beebe. Officials estimate that up to 5,000 red-winged blackbirds, European starlings, common grackles, and brown-headed cowbirds fell before midnight.

Results from preliminary testing released Wednesday by the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison, Wisconsin, show the birds died from blunt-force trauma, supporting preliminary findings released by the Arkansas Livestock and Poultry Commission on Monday.

"They collided with cars, trees, buildings, and other stationary objects," said ornithologist Karen Rowe of the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.

"Right before they began to fall, it appears that really loud booms from professional-grade fireworks—10 to 12 of them, a few seconds apart—were reported in the general vicinity of a roost of the birds, flushing them out," Rowe said.

"There were other, legal fireworks set off at the same time that might have then forced the birds to fly lower than they normally do, below treetop level, and [these] birds have very poor night vision and do not typically fly at night."

The dead birds found in Arkansas are of species that normally congregate in large groups in fall or winter. "The record I've heard is 23 million birds in one roost," Audubon's Butcher said.

"In that context, 5,000 birds dying is a fairly small amount."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ansas-science/

Pictures: Birds Fall From Sky in Arkansas

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nsas-pictures/

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A miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.



   
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February 4th, 2012, 05:12 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Simply stating christian doctrines/beliefs does not equal
proving that those beliefs are true.
You mean proving that the foundation of faith is true. Of course not.

Quote:
Simply recounting miraculous events does not prove that
those "so called" miraculous events are historically true.
Supra.

Quote:
A miraculous event is proven true after all
non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
Which means we could never with any real certainty make any claim, given that in doing so we'd presuppose sufficient knowledge without being able to prove there wasn't something we didn't know, which we couldn't by definition be aware of except as a potential, the degree of which would be equally impossible to ascertain.

Quote:
Name a uniquely christian doctrine/belief (the golden rule is not uniquely christian) that has been proven true.
The Golden Rule, as stated, is unique, but how would that make it true? How would any statement of value be proved unless we establish the authority of it, which is only really another and round about way of asking for proof of God. More specifically of the Christian notion/experience of Him in this case.

Quote:
The answer is none because proof rules out faith which is a
key component of christianity.
That's not it though. Unless you believe yourself to possess perfect knowledge you will always acknowledge that you could be wrong in any part. So faith is eternal and for everyone. The only question relates to kind and function.

Quote:
Name a miraculous event in the bible that has been proven true.
For me? Any number, but most certainly the risen Christ. But for you or anyone outside of my experience? A different thing.

Quote:
The side I have chosen is Non-Christian.
Sorry to hear it.

Quote:
Which side have you chosen and why?
I had this conversation around here ages ago with an atheist friend of mine. When anyone tells me to prove my faith, to prove that God exists, I simply ask what criteria, once met, would objectively settle the question.

Eventually everyone wanders away.

For my part, as with TomO, it's my experience. That is the only possible way for any man to be satisfied on the question.



   
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February 4th, 2012, 05:13 PM

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Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
How much of it (christian apologetic evidence) is objective vs subjective?
_______________________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver View Post
I have chosen the Christian side because I have been blessed with the opportunity to receive Christ.

I believe that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, he seeks and saves those that are lost. So, I think each person gets this opportunity to receive Christ when he knocks on the door of their heart and sees if they desire to ask him in.

Also, this notion agrees with the world I see around me. I see a fallen place of corruption, wickedness, and violence. I don't believe this is God's will or highest good and I believe in his sovereignty. So, since he has promised to make things new...I believe it will happen.

As far as miracles go, and seeing things, I think you're right that God calls us to faith. Faith is believing first, then seeing. I'm thinking of a quote I heard.

It's from Saint Augustine

"“Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.”
My summary of Guyver's statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
So, for you the christian paradigm best matches up with the world you see around you.
Now compare and contrast Guyver's statement with TomO's statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomO View Post
Can't really answer I'm afraid because my Faith is based upon my experience. That is to say I have recieved that which to me is proof enough. Christian Apologetics may provide some bolstering to Faith but it is not the basis in it. Neither is my Faith based upon "what I see around me" from day to day but rather my worldview is shaped by what I have recieved.

Experience is totally subjective, therefore, what I have recieved is pointless and meaningless to you.

The fact is either I am insane and had some sort of psychotic break or my Faith is well founded. These are the only two options open in my case. I don't care which one you choose.

OUR LORD placed but one serious question to HIS Disciples; upon which is grounded everything:

Mark 8:29
"But who do you say that I am?"

Beyond that all the rest of the doctrines and apologetics are pointless.



   
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February 4th, 2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123 View Post
Simply stating christian doctrines/beliefs does not equal
proving that those beliefs are true.

Simply recounting miraculous events does not prove that
those "so called" miraculous events are historically true.

A miraculous event is proven true after all
non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.

Name a uniquely christian doctrine/belief (the golden rule is not uniquely christian) that has been proven true.

The answer is none because proof rules out faith which is a
key component of christianity.

Name a miraculous event in the bible that has been proven true.

The answer is none because proof rules out faith which is a
key component of christianity.

The side I have chosen is Non-Christian.

Which side have you chosen and why?
No, you picked "other" so your moonbeam views are just a flavor of the month for the shy atheist. So, really, pick a side and stop waffling about.

AMR





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