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I'm not absolutely sure of much. Only acting as I see fit. With what would you replace Christianity, smart ***?
LOL......it isn't so much about replacing Christianity as it is not wanting to be told that i'm absolutely wrong by someone who can't prove that they're absolutely right....i'm not a Heretic, or a Heathen.... i'm a person searching for the truth just like anyone else and just because i interpret the evidence differently doesn't make me wrong automatically.
i don't consider Christianity to be unique but more of an enlightened form of Judaism with all due respect.
Orthodoxy is just the Tyranny of the Majority, a Spiritual Despotism where accepted doctrine is Sacred, Untouchable self-evident truth no matter how absurd it may be.
I'm not an atheist but I am a Non-Christian - Here are a few of the reasons.
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I have many objections to christianity
1) I have no faith in the second hand sources of the bible
2) I believe a miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
3) gen 1 - the conflict between science and the bible
4) john 14:6 - christian exclusivity when it comes to salvation
5) mt 28:19-20 the inadequacy of the global outreach plan
6) rev 21:8 - the duration of afterlife punishment
7) the reason people become christians put nicely - I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.
put bluntly - non-christians develop relationships with christians and almost subconsciously fear that those relationships will be jeopardized if they don't convert to the religion of their friend(s) and or family - so, those non-christians subtly convince themselves that what their friend(s) and or family believe is true. This process occurs in both children and adults.
8 ) the very slim chance people have of becoming christians if they are raised in a non-christian country - what would YOU have become if you grew up instead in a land where you were surrounded by impressive and impactful muslims or jews or buddhists? Most likely a muslim, jew or buddhist. (related to point 5)
and
My deconversion story in a nutshell -
I was married to the faith when I was 16 (the church is called the bride of christ)
The marriage was annulled when I was 39
The grounds for annulment - fraud (on the part of the biographers of the groom)
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Don't consider this an exhaustive list
I believe a miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
a post worth repeating
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
There are some miracles recorded in the bible for which there seems to be no natural explanations.
Example
Jos 10:13-14 The sun and the moon stand still
So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[a] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a human being. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!
In this particular case two non-supernatural explanations are that
1) the author of the book of Joshua in this case is not telling the truth
or
2) he was lied to and he is passing on a story which he erroneously believes to be true.
Remember, just because the book is called Joshua, that doesn't mean Joshua wrote it.
Considering I grew up largely devoid of organized Religion, settling upon a New Age type mysticism out of preference shaped by my own investigation, until HE grabbed me.
That having been said I do believe that the culture one is raised in plays a great deal in what one is willing to accept due to the implications it may have regarding things that one may hold dear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomO
I came to Faith three months into my thirtieth year.
Just pasting posts together so whoever doesn't know it will see a fuller story.
Some more pasting together of posts for those who have joined this TV show in the middle and want a fuller picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
Let me be very blunt - non-christians develop relationships with christians and almost subconsciously fear that those relationships will be jeopardized if they don't convert to the religion of their friend(s) and or family - so, those non-christians subtly convince themselves that what their friend(s) and or family believe is true. This process occurs in both children and adults.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomO
Sooo...Tell me; who was it that you were subconsciously "sucking up to" that is responsible for your Deism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
Remember, it is the exceptions to the "rule" that prove the "rule".
My Deism (and I'm not even a pure deist) conclusion was the result of a years long debate between me, myself and I and in the end - I won the debate.
I have no family, friends or co-workers who are deist or think like me in this matter but I am still loved by my wife, 4 adult children and my four grandchildren.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbang123
I am a Non-Christian - Here are a few of the reasons.
--------
I have many objections to christianity
1) I have no faith in the second hand sources of the bible
2) I believe a miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
3) gen 1 - the conflict between science and the bible
4) john 14:6 - christian exclusivity when it comes to salvation
5) mt 28:19-20 the inadequacy of the global outreach plan
6) rev 21:8 - the duration of afterlife punishment
7) the reason people become christians put nicely - I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.
put bluntly - non-christians develop relationships with christians and almost subconsciously fear that those relationships will be jeopardized if they don't convert to the religion of their friend(s) and or family - so, those non-christians subtly convince themselves that what their friend(s) and or family believe is true. This process occurs in both children and adults.
8 ) the very slim chance people have of becoming christians if they are raised in a non-christian country - what would YOU have become if you grew up instead in a land where you were surrounded by impressive and impactful muslims or jews or buddhists? Most likely a muslim, jew or buddhist. (related to point 5)
and
My deconversion story in a nutshell -
I was married to the faith when I was 16 (the church is called the bride of christ)
The marriage was annulled when I was 39
The grounds for annulment - fraud (on the part of the biographers of the groom)
--------
Don't consider this an exhaustive list
I utilize my own version of what some call the outsider Test of Faith, which is to say that i reserve the same Skepticism for my own beliefs that i do others beliefs.... I am a Deist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveDodo007
Non-Christian.
DaveDodo007 is listed as an atheist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dena
I've clearly already chosen a side
Dena listed as jewish - I'm assuming she is a Non-Christian and not of the Jewish Christian variety
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomO
The fact is either I am insane and had some sort of psychotic break or my Faith is well founded.
TomO listed as christian
Quote:
Originally Posted by bybee
Yup
bybee in agreement with what TomO said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver
I have chosen the Christian side because I have been blessed with the opportunity to receive Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
Since God works through nature
Sum1sGruj listed as a christian
Quote:
Originally Posted by meshak
Thats right, Get this friend: Christianity is all about believe in Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambora
Christian or Non-Christian / Pick A Side
I pick Christian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolken
Pascal said something to the effect that - In faith there is enough light for those to believe and enough shadow for those not to. (Sorry I do not have the exact quote)
Tolken listed as christian
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryContrary
I have faith
MaryContrary listed as a christian
Quote:
Originally Posted by I aint no monkey
Born again, spirit filled, scaleless eyed, truth knower, disciple of Christ here, checking in. Faith leads to knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwp98
Christian. Unique worldview... Best case, I have a friend who sticks closer than a brother on judgment day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic
For me? ... most certainly the risen Christ....For my part, as with TomO, it's my experience. That is the only possible way for any man to be satisfied on the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ask Mr. Religion
So, really, pick a side
Ask Mr. Religion listed as a christian
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Christians and Non-Christians, thanks for the testimonies - for the other christians out there who chose not to share - remember Luke 9:26 and 1 Peter 3:15.
1) I have no faith in the second hand sources of the bible
Then read and rely on Paul, though there's an argument to be made that you can rely on a great deal more and that your "second hand" tag is less than widely established as applicable in many particulars.
Quote:
2) I believe a miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
Then given what we know we can't know, you simply negate the word and application from the outset and aren't in this as objective as you mean to appear.
Quote:
3) gen 1 - the conflict between science and the bible
Alleged...this covers your following subjective Biblical objections.
Quote:
7) the reason people become christians put nicely - I think it's impressive and impactful relationships with living christians that draws people into the faith and sometimes christian apologetics helps to cement them into the faith after conversion.
Witness certainly plays a role in drawing many into any particular fold. We don't typically join organizations filled with people we don't respect or find appealing. But it's the principles and call of the central belief that determines who those people are.
Quote:
put bluntly - non-christians develop relationships with christians and almost subconsciously fear that those relationships will be jeopardized if they don't convert to the religion of their friend(s) and or family - so, those non-christians subtly convince themselves that what their friend(s) and or family believe is true. This process occurs in both children and adults.
Probably true for some. No reason to suspect it's anything more than the exceptional.
And you leave off the powerful third, which is constituted by those who have a life changing encounter with the subsequent object of their adoration. Paul is the first such example, but hardly the last.
Quote:
8 ) the very slim chance people have of becoming christians if they are raised in a non-christian country
Assumes a great deal that isn't assumed by the entirety of Christendom. Have you ever encountered the argument of or for invincible ignorance in relation to the unsaved?
Quote:
- what would YOU have become if you grew up instead in a land where you were surrounded by impressive and impactful muslims or jews or buddhists? Most likely a muslim, jew or buddhist. (related to point 5)
Well, someone who believes in predestination will say "And?" while those who don't will either engage the prior bit or suggest that the narrow gate is understood.
Quote:
My deconversion story in a nutshell -
I was married to the faith when I was 16 (the church is called the bride of christ)
The marriage was annulled when I was 39
The grounds for annulment - fraud (on the part of the biographers of the groom)
Ah, the angry ex. Well, those are always objective, reasonable sources of information about the prior object of affection.
Why didn't you just say this at the outset. It explains a great deal.
I believe a miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic
Then given what we know we can't know, you simply negate the word and application from the outset and aren't in this as objective as you mean to appear.
Example
Jos 10:13-14 The sun and the moon stand still
So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[a] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a human being. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!
In this particular case two non-supernatural explanations are that
1) the author of the book of Joshua in this case is not telling the truth
or 2) he was lied to and he is passing on a story which he erroneously believes to be true.
Remember, just because the book is called Joshua, that doesn't mean Joshua wrote it.
mt 28:19-20 the inadequacy of the global outreach plan
"...Just how large a group (has) the unevangelized been?
It is estimated that in A.D. 100 there were 181 million people, of which one million were Christians. It is also believed there were 60,000 unreached people groups at that time.
By A.D. 1000 there were 270 million people. 50 million of whom were Christians, and 50,000 unreached people groups.
In 1989 there were 5.2 billion people, of whom 1.7 billion called themselves Christians, and there were 12,000 unreached people groups (figures from the World Christian Encyclopedia as cited in World Evangelization 16 [1989]:40)."
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rev 21:8 the duration of afterlife punishment
vs
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
I was married to the faith when I was 16 (the church is called the bride of christ)
The marriage was annulled when I was 39
The grounds for annulment - fraud (on the part of the biographers of the groom)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Town Heretic
Ah, the angry ex. Well, those are always objective, reasonable sources of information about the prior object of affection.
Why didn't you just say this at the outset. It explains a great deal.
Yes, you can focus on the annulment or you can focus on the fraud.
I choose to focus on both.
I believe a miraculous event is proven true after all non-supernatural explanations of that event are proven false.
Example
Jos 10:13-14 The sun and the moon stand still
So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[a] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a human being. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!
In this particular case two non-supernatural explanations are that
1) the author of the book of Joshua in this case is not telling the truth
or 2) he was lied to and he is passing on a story which he erroneously believes to be true.
Remember, just because the book is called Joshua, that doesn't mean Joshua wrote it.
You wrote that already. But you don't address my prior argument regarding the problem of your standard. It's reflected here in that there is no way to determine the answer...also, you don't give every possible and additional non-supernatural explanation. One, off the top of my head, would be that an inexplicable event occurred that was then placed in a religious context.
I was married to the faith when I was 16 (the church is called the bride of christ)
The marriage was annulled when I was 39
The grounds for annulment - fraud (on the part of the biographers of the groom)
Yes, you can focus on the annulment or you can focus on the fraud.
I choose to focus on both.
Rather, I note that people who go through what you have typically can't approach the matter with a great deal of objectivity. And given you haven't made a case for fraud all we're left with is an examination of a fairly bitter tone wrapped about accusation.
mt 28:19-20 the inadequacy of the global outreach plan
"...Just how large a group (has) the unevangelized been?
It is estimated that in A.D. 100 there were 181 million people, of which one million were Christians. It is also believed there were 60,000 unreached people groups at that time.
By A.D. 1000 there were 270 million people. 50 million of whom were Christians, and 50,000 unreached people groups.
In 1989 there were 5.2 billion people, of whom 1.7 billion called themselves Christians, and there were 12,000 unreached people groups (figures from the World Christian Encyclopedia as cited in World Evangelization 16 [1989]:40)."
Already began an answer on this point. You didn't respond to it or a number of answers in post 98 (see: response to your point 8).
Quote:
rev 21:8 the duration of afterlife punishment
vs
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Those aren't necessarily mutually contradictory, you know. Context is a bit important.
Today no honest and informed person can maintain that the universe came into being a few thousand years ago and assumed its current form in six days (to say nothing of absurdities like day and night existing before the sun was created).
Religious belief remains relevant because of the comfort it can provide.
The traditional Judeo-Christian God endorsed genocide, slavery, rape, and the death penalty for trivial insults.
Science is the best explanatory system that we have.
But just because science can explain so many unknowns doesn't mean that it can explain everything, or that it can vanquish the unknowable. That is why religious belief is not obsolete.
When Religion Ruled The World They Called it The Dark Ages
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