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YahuShuan YahuShuan is offline
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March 9th, 2012, 04:07 AM

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Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
IMHO, you are mistaken about the meaning of Shiloh. Take a look at this:

S H I L O H - Genesis 49:10

When Jacob thought he was about to die, he invited all his sons unto himself at his deathbed for the last blessings. At the turn of Judah, Jacob said that the scepter would not depart from his Tribe until Shiloh came.

Christians in general assume that's a prophecy about Jesus, and I have researched about the matter, and happened to have found out that's not true.

The Tribe of Judah had grown to become the leader over all the other Tribes, and kept the monopoly to exert hegemony over them all. That's the scepter that would not depart from Judah till Shiloh came.

After the death of Solomon, Prophet Ahijah from Shiloh took his coat and went out to meet Jeroboam, who was the leader of forced labor among the Northern Tribes. As the Prophet met Jeroboam, he tore his coat in twelve parts and gave ten to Jeroboam, saying that God had decided to split the Tribes in two Kingdoms, and that ten of those Tribes would be governed by Jeroboam. That's when Shiloh came, and Judah lost the hegemony over ten of the Tribes. (I Kings 11:29-32)

It's important to understand that Shiloh is not the Prophet who came from his home city called Shiloh, but the split between the Tribes and the secession of the Ten Tribes.

Rehoboam, the King who had succeeded Solomon his father did not understand and started preparing the Country for civil war when Shemaiah, the man of God dissuaded him by making him understand that Shiloh had come. He got it and recalled the Army. (I Kings 12:21-24)

Now, kindly share with me your comments.

Ben
Let's see if Albert Barnes can help you out, I sure can't...
Gen_49:10
From his physical force we now pass to his moral supremacy. “The sceptre,” the staff of authority. “Shall not depart from Judah.” The tribe scepter did not leave Judah so long as there was a remnant of the commonwealth of Israel. Long after the other tribes had lost their individuality, Judah lingered in existence and in some measure of independence; and from the return his name supplanted that of Israel or Jacob, as the common designation of the people. “Nor the lawgiven from between his feet.” This is otherwise rendered, “nor the judicial staff from between his feet;” and it is argued that this rendering corresponds best with the phrase “between his feet” and with the parallel clause which precedes. It is not worth while contending for one against the other, as the meaning of both is precisely the same. But we have retained the English version, as the term מחקק mechoqēq has only one clear meaning; “between the feet” may mean among his descendants or in his tribe; and the synthetic parallelism of the clauses is satisfied by the identity of meaning.
Lawgiver is to be understood as judge, dispenser or administrator of law. Judah had the forerank among the tribes in the wilderness, and never altogether lost it. Nahshon the son of Amminadab, the prince of his tribe, was the ancestor of David, who was anointed as the rightful sovereign of all Israel, and in whom the throne became hereditary. The revolt of the ten tribes curtailed, but did not abolish the actual sovereignty of Rehoboam and his successors, who continued the acknowledged sovereigns until some time after the return from the captivity. From that date the whole nation was virtually absorbed in Judah, and whatever trace of self-government remained belonged to him until the birth of Jesus, who was the lineal descendant of the royal line of David and of Judah, and was the Messiah, the anointed of heaven to be king of Zion and of Israel in a far higher sense than before. “Until Shiloh come.”
This is otherwise translated, “until he come to Shiloh,” the place so called. This is explained of the time when “the whole assembly of the children of Israel was convened at Shiloh, and set up the tent of meeting there” Jos_18:1. We hold by the former translation:
1. Because Shiloh has not yet been named as a known locality in the land of promise.
2. Judah did not come to Shiloh in any exclusive sense.
3. His coming thither with his fellows had no bearing whatever on his supremacy.
4. He did not come to Shiloh as the seat of his government or any part of his territory; and
5. The real sovereignty of Judah took place after this convention at Shiloh, and not before it.
After the rejection of the second translation on these grounds, the former is accepted as the only tenable alternative.
6. Besides, it is the natural rendering of the words.
7. Before the coming of Shiloh, the Prince of Peace, the highest pitch of Judah’s supremacy in its primary form has to be attained.
8. On the coming of Shiloh the last remnant of that supremacy was removed, only to be replaced by the higher form of pre-eminence which the Prince of Peace inaugurates.
And unto him be the obedience of the peoples. - “Unto him” means naturally unto Shiloh. “The obedience” describes the willing submission to the new form of sovereignty which is ushered in by Shiloh. The word is otherwise rendered “gathering;” but this does not suit the usage in Pro_30:17. “The obedience” intimates that the supremacy of Judah does not cease at the coming of Shiloh, but only assumes a grander form.
Of the peoples. - Not only the sons of Israel, but all the descendants of Adam will ultimately bow down to the Prince of Peace. This is the seed of the woman, who shall bruise the serpent’s head, the seed of Abraham, in whom all the families of the earth shall be blessed, presented now under the new aspect of the peacemaker, whom all the nations of the earth shall eventually obey as the Prince of Peace. He is therefore, now revealed as the Destroyer of the works of evil, the Dispenser of the blessings of grace, and the King of peace. The coming of Shiloh and the obedience of the nations to him will cover a long period of time, the close of which will coincide with the limit here set to Judah’s earthly supremacy in its wider and loftier stage. This prediction therefore, truly penetrates to the latter days.





YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.
   
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Lightbulb March 10th, 2012, 02:47 PM

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Originally Posted by YahuShuan View Post
Let's see if Albert Barnes can help you out, I sure can't...
Gen_49:10
From his physical force we now pass to his moral supremacy. “The sceptre,” the staff of authority. “Shall not depart from Judah.” The tribe scepter did not leave Judah so long as there was a remnant of the commonwealth of Israel. Long after the other tribes had lost their individuality, Judah lingered in existence and in some measure of independence; and from the return his name supplanted that of Israel or Jacob, as the common designation of the people. “Nor the lawgiven from between his feet.” This is otherwise rendered, “nor the judicial staff from between his feet;” and it is argued that this rendering corresponds best with the phrase “between his feet” and with the parallel clause which precedes. It is not worth while contending for one against the other, as the meaning of both is precisely the same. But we have retained the English version, as the term מחקק mechoqēq has only one clear meaning; “between the feet” may mean among his descendants or in his tribe; and the synthetic parallelism of the clauses is satisfied by the identity of meaning.
Lawgiver is to be understood as judge, dispenser or administrator of law. Judah had the forerank among the tribes in the wilderness, and never altogether lost it. Nahshon the son of Amminadab, the prince of his tribe, was the ancestor of David, who was anointed as the rightful sovereign of all Israel, and in whom the throne became hereditary. The revolt of the ten tribes curtailed, but did not abolish the actual sovereignty of Rehoboam and his successors, who continued the acknowledged sovereigns until some time after the return from the captivity. From that date the whole nation was virtually absorbed in Judah, and whatever trace of self-government remained belonged to him until the birth of Jesus, who was the lineal descendant of the royal line of David and of Judah, and was the Messiah, the anointed of heaven to be king of Zion and of Israel in a far higher sense than before. “Until Shiloh come.”
This is otherwise translated, “until he come to Shiloh,” the place so called. This is explained of the time when “the whole assembly of the children of Israel was convened at Shiloh, and set up the tent of meeting there” Jos_18:1. We hold by the former translation:
1. Because Shiloh has not yet been named as a known locality in the land of promise.
2. Judah did not come to Shiloh in any exclusive sense.
3. His coming thither with his fellows had no bearing whatever on his supremacy.
4. He did not come to Shiloh as the seat of his government or any part of his territory; and
5. The real sovereignty of Judah took place after this convention at Shiloh, and not before it.
After the rejection of the second translation on these grounds, the former is accepted as the only tenable alternative.
6. Besides, it is the natural rendering of the words.
7. Before the coming of Shiloh, the Prince of Peace, the highest pitch of Judah’s supremacy in its primary form has to be attained.
8. On the coming of Shiloh the last remnant of that supremacy was removed, only to be replaced by the higher form of pre-eminence which the Prince of Peace inaugurates.
And unto him be the obedience of the peoples. - “Unto him” means naturally unto Shiloh. “The obedience” describes the willing submission to the new form of sovereignty which is ushered in by Shiloh. The word is otherwise rendered “gathering;” but this does not suit the usage in Pro_30:17. “The obedience” intimates that the supremacy of Judah does not cease at the coming of Shiloh, but only assumes a grander form.
Of the peoples. - Not only the sons of Israel, but all the descendants of Adam will ultimately bow down to the Prince of Peace. This is the seed of the woman, who shall bruise the serpent’s head, the seed of Abraham, in whom all the families of the earth shall be blessed, presented now under the new aspect of the peacemaker, whom all the nations of the earth shall eventually obey as the Prince of Peace. He is therefore, now revealed as the Destroyer of the works of evil, the Dispenser of the blessings of grace, and the King of peace. The coming of Shiloh and the obedience of the nations to him will cover a long period of time, the close of which will coincide with the limit here set to Judah’s earthly supremacy in its wider and loftier stage. This prediction therefore, truly penetrates to the latter days.

Well YS, it didn't help. First, because the appeal to authorities whom one does not understand is too fallacious. And second, I am more interested in your views than in the views of another whom I am not discussing the issue with. And last but not least, Shiloh was an event in the History of Israel and not someone who was supposed to come. Judah lost his hegemony over ten of the Tribes when Jeroboam committed the insurrection to break down the Union of Israel by forming a different kingdom with ten of the Tribes. And this is cohoborated by History, sacred and secular.
Ben



   
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March 10th, 2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post
Well YS, it didn't help. First, because the appeal to authorities whom one does not understand is too fallacious. And second, I am more interested in your views than in the views of another whom I am not discussing the issue with. And last but not least, Shiloh was an event in the History of Israel and not someone who was supposed to come. Judah lost his hegemony over ten of the Tribes when Jeroboam committed the insurrection to break down the Union of Israel by forming a different kingdom with ten of the Tribes. And this is cohoborated by History, sacred and secular.
Ben
I'm sorry but the text indicated the finality of reference is to an individual.

I am no longer watching this thread.





YeshaYahu (Isaiah) 8:20: To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak.

1st Kepha (Peter) 4:11: If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע (Yahu'Shua) Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn.

Last edited by YahuShuan; March 11th, 2012 at 12:53 PM..
   
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Lightbulb March 12th, 2012, 02:30 PM

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Originally Posted by YahuShuan View Post
I'm sorry but the text indicated the finality of reference is to an individual.

I am no longer watching this thread.

If by "the text" you mean my original thread, I am only too clear that Shiloh is rather an event in the History of Israel and not about the coming of an individual. Isaiah considered the day when Ephraim seceded from Judah as the worst event in the History of Israel, second only to the day when Assyria conquered the Ten Tribes and eradicated them from the Land of Israel, (Isa. 7:17) according to God's rejection of the Tabernacle of Joseph in Psalm 78:67-69.
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