Satanic Spirits that Deny the Power of Christ's Gospel
ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
I have been in the forum for over 5 years and I know what they teach, and you dont. Why do you defend Calvinism even though you dont know what they teach?
Are you are a clavinst? If you are you sure are ignorant of what you follow.
Predestination and unconditional election. They are both very adequate to Scripture and even fill in some holes that Arminians patently struggle with.
Unconditional election- means that some people are destined apart from others to serve purposes in which they will be saved for.
This is a notion, in otherwords, that God may not send a person to Hell for something as negligible as empty claim.
That is a major 'ouch' of Arminianism because otherwise, God is irrational and malevolent.
Predestination- if an omnipotent being is in fact omnipotent, then the being would know the outcome of whatever it so creates. This is basic and should not be controversial. This is a major 'ouch' of Arminianism because otherwise God is not God.
Like I said, you Arminians are so driven by that lunatic fringe that you all think reason can just take the back seat to your baseless convictions.
Slogan/motto:
The important thing is the rhythm. Always have rhythm in your shaking. Now a Manhattan you shake to fox-trot time, a Bronx to two-step time, a dry martini you always shake to waltz time.
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March 15th, 2012, 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meshak
You are deeply deceived.
good day.
More accusations without any attempt to substantiate. This is what passes for argumentation? Pity.
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
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March 16th, 2012, 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
No, I am not. Calvinism and Arminianism are funadmental theologies, and do not alter the teachings of Christ. Protestantism cascades from three theologies- Arminianism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism. They are all interpretations which ultimately lead to the same thing, they just take different routes. The only real argument between them is who is more correct in the physics of it all, all which I personally think Arminianism suffers by.
That is where people like Pate go wrong. They try to make everything that doesn't agree with them to be the 'work of the devil'. Notice that Arminians are the only people who do that.
Just because one is too ignorant or biased to not understand what Calvinism posits doesn't really mean anything except that such people are just driven by their own petty, unreasonable convictions.
You never post any scripture to make your point. The reason for this is that there is no scripture to support Calvinism.
Please show me one scripture that says someone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell? You can't, there is no such scripture.
Please show me one scripture that says that plainly says "God predestinates" you can't, there is no such scripture.
You have built a doctrine and a religion that is built on assumptions. Not on Bible facts. You assume certain scriptures are teaching predestination when they are not.
Jesus Christ is God's elect. All of humanity has been elected in him. Salvation has been provided for all. This is God's great free gift. A gift can only be accepted or rejected. Man does have a choice. To believe otherwise is to make God unjust and a tyrant.
Slogan/motto:
The important thing is the rhythm. Always have rhythm in your shaking. Now a Manhattan you shake to fox-trot time, a Bronx to two-step time, a dry martini you always shake to waltz time.
Reputation:
March 16th, 2012, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pate
You never post any scripture to make your point. The reason for this is that there is no scripture to support Calvinism.
Please show me one scripture that says someone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell? You can't, there is no such scripture.
Please show me one scripture that says that plainly says "God predestinates" you can't, there is no such scripture.
You have built a doctrine and a religion that is built on assumptions. Not on Bible facts. You assume certain scriptures are teaching predestination when they are not.
Jesus Christ is God's elect. All of humanity has been elected in him. Salvation has been provided for all. This is God's great free gift. A gift can only be accepted or rejected. Man does have a choice. To believe otherwise is to make God unjust and a tyrant.
Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1. How much more do you want?
Slogan/motto:
The important thing is the rhythm. Always have rhythm in your shaking. Now a Manhattan you shake to fox-trot time, a Bronx to two-step time, a dry martini you always shake to waltz time.
Reputation:
March 16th, 2012, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pate
Is this all that you have got?
Nope.
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I can post 75 scriptures that say Jesus is the savior of ALL MEN, EVERYONE, ANYONE, WHOSOEVER, THE WORLD,
And you would ignore context on most of them.
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You think that the Bible contradicts its self, It doesn't.
I don't believe it contains contradictions. And, unlike you, I believe all of it.
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Romans 8:28, 29, 30, does not say onyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell. You are assuming that it is saying that.
No, I've actually exegete it on this forum. It says God justifies those He calls. And He calls those He predestines to salvation.
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Ephesians 1:4, 5. Does not say anyone was predestinated to heaven or to hell.
he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Seems pretty straight forward.
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What it does teach is that all of humanity was in Christ before the foundation of the world.
I don't even see the word humanity in there. You are just making that up.
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1 Peter 1:2, Does not teach predestination. All of humanity was elected in Christ.
Nothing about humanity.
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Salvation has been provided for all. This is God's great free gift. Man does have a choice.
If Gary Kasparov played me at chess, I would lose. Now, in a strictly libertarian sense, I am "free" to control the result of the game, via my choices. But in another, more conservative sense I am not "free" - because I would, as a matter of objective fact, lose.
It seems we can use "free will" in two different senses. This thought may apply to the uses of the concept of "free will" from the standpoint of time (which we can understand) and sempiternity (which we cannot fully understand).
Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 23, Article 5:
I answer that, Since predestination includes will, as was said above (Article 4), the reason of predestination must be sought for in the same way as was the reason of the will of God. Now it was shown above (Question 19, Article 5), that we cannot assign any cause of the divine will on the part of the act of willing; but a reason can be found on the part of the things willed; inasmuch as God wills one thing on account of something else. Wherefore nobody has been so insane as to say that merit is the cause of divine predestination as regards the act of the predestinator. But this is the question, whether, as regards the effect, predestination has any cause; or what comes to the same thing, whether God pre-ordained that He would give the effect of predestination to anyone on account of any merits.
Accordingly there were some who held that the effect of predestination was pre-ordained for some on account of pre-existing merits in a former life. This was the opinion of Origen, who thought that the souls of men were created in the beginning, and according to the diversity of their works different states were assigned to them in this world when united with the body. The Apostle, however, rebuts this opinion where he says (Romans 9:11-12): "For when they were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil . . . not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said of her: The elder shall serve the younger."
Others said that pre-existing merits in this life are the reason and cause of the effect of predestination. For the Pelagians taught that the beginning of doing well came from us; and the consummaion from God: so that it came about that the effect of predestination was granted to one, and not to another, because the one made a beginning by preparing, whereas the other did not. But against this we have the saying of the Apostle (2 Corinthians 3:5), that "we are not sufficient to think anything of ourselves as of ourselves." Now no principle of action can be imagined previous to the act of thinking. Wherefore it cannot be said that anything begun in us can be the reason of the effect of predestination.
And so others said that merits following the effect of predestination are the reason of predestination; giving us to understand that God gives grace to a person, and pre-ordains that He will give it, because He knows beforehand that He will make good use of that grace, as if a king were to give a horse to a soldier because he knows he will make good use of it. But these seem to have drawn a distinction between that which flows from grace, and that which flows from free will, as if the same thing cannot come from both. It is, however, manifest that what is of grace is the effect of predestination; and this cannot be considered as the reason of predestination, since it is contained in the notion of predestination. Therefore, if anything else in us be the reason of predestination, it will outside the effect of predestination. Now there is no distinction between what flows from free will, and what is of predestination; as there is not distinction between what flows from a secondary cause and from a first cause. For the providence of God produces effects through the operation of secondary causes, as was above shown (22, 3). Wherefore, that which flows from free-will is also of predestination. We must say, therefore, that the effect of predestination may be considered in a twofold light--in one way, in particular; and thus there is no reason why one effect of predestination should not be the reason or cause of another; a subsequent effect being the reason of a previous effect, as its final cause; and the previous effect being the reason of the subsequent as its meritorious cause, which is reduced to the disposition of the matter. Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lamentations 5:21): "convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted." Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason; towards which the whole effect of predestination is directed as to an end; and from which it proceeds, as from its first moving principle.
Good question meshak, one that has been pressed upon dr. Pate from the evangelialonecal view and the Reformed view. His answer is in the form of repetition of previous statements or ad hominems.. He is not biased though, within his interpretation, .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yab Yum
Just a thought:
If Gary Kasparov played me at chess, I would lose. Now, in a strictly libertarian sense, I am "free" to control the result of the game, via my choices. But in another, more conservative sense I am not "free" - because I would, as a matter of objective fact, lose.
It seems we can use "free will" in two different senses. This thought may apply to the uses of the concept of "free will" from the standpoint of time (which we can understand) and sempiternity (which we cannot fully understand).
Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 23, Article 5:
I answer that, Since predestination includes will, as was said above (Article 4), the reason of predestination must be sought for in the same way as was the reason of the will of God. Now it was shown above (Question 19, Article 5), that we cannot assign any cause of the divine will on the part of the act of willing; but a reason can be found on the part of the things willed; inasmuch as God wills one thing on account of something else. Wherefore nobody has been so insane as to say that merit is the cause of divine predestination as regards the act of the predestinator. But this is the question, whether, as regards the effect, predestination has any cause; or what comes to the same thing, whether God pre-ordained that He would give the effect of predestination to anyone on account of any merits.
Accordingly there were some who held that the effect of predestination was pre-ordained for some on account of pre-existing merits in a former life. This was the opinion of Origen, who thought that the souls of men were created in the beginning, and according to the diversity of their works different states were assigned to them in this world when united with the body. The Apostle, however, rebuts this opinion where he says (Romans 9:11-12): "For when they were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil . . . not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said of her: The elder shall serve the younger."
Others said that pre-existing merits in this life are the reason and cause of the effect of predestination. For the Pelagians taught that the beginning of doing well came from us; and the consummaion from God: so that it came about that the effect of predestination was granted to one, and not to another, because the one made a beginning by preparing, whereas the other did not. But against this we have the saying of the Apostle (2 Corinthians 3:5), that "we are not sufficient to think anything of ourselves as of ourselves." Now no principle of action can be imagined previous to the act of thinking. Wherefore it cannot be said that anything begun in us can be the reason of the effect of predestination.
And so others said that merits following the effect of predestination are the reason of predestination; giving us to understand that God gives grace to a person, and pre-ordains that He will give it, because He knows beforehand that He will make good use of that grace, as if a king were to give a horse to a soldier because he knows he will make good use of it. But these seem to have drawn a distinction between that which flows from grace, and that which flows from free will, as if the same thing cannot come from both. It is, however, manifest that what is of grace is the effect of predestination; and this cannot be considered as the reason of predestination, since it is contained in the notion of predestination. Therefore, if anything else in us be the reason of predestination, it will outside the effect of predestination. Now there is no distinction between what flows from free will, and what is of predestination; as there is not distinction between what flows from a secondary cause and from a first cause. For the providence of God produces effects through the operation of secondary causes, as was above shown (22, 3). Wherefore, that which flows from free-will is also of predestination. We must say, therefore, that the effect of predestination may be considered in a twofold light--in one way, in particular; and thus there is no reason why one effect of predestination should not be the reason or cause of another; a subsequent effect being the reason of a previous effect, as its final cause; and the previous effect being the reason of the subsequent as its meritorious cause, which is reduced to the disposition of the matter. Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lamentations 5:21): "convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted." Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason; towards which the whole effect of predestination is directed as to an end; and from which it proceeds, as from its first moving principle.
chess
Seriously, thank you for your post. Many should read Aquinas writings.
A quick shout out Evoken, where are you?
"A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing. A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away...."
You never post any scripture to make your point. The reason for this is that there is no scripture to support Calvinism.
Please show me one scripture that says someone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell? You can't, there is no such scripture.
Please show me one scripture that says that plainly says "God predestinates" you can't, there is no such scripture.
You have built a doctrine and a religion that is built on assumptions. Not on Bible facts. You assume certain scriptures are teaching predestination when they are not.
Jesus Christ is God's elect. All of humanity has been elected in him. Salvation has been provided for all. This is God's great free gift. A gift can only be accepted or rejected. Man does have a choice. To believe otherwise is to make God unjust and a tyrant.
Your mind is in a tiny little bubble. You simply refuse to see how it works, and continuously beat a straw man. You have been shown out of the hundred threads you have made by every single Calvinist on this site, and you are disrespectful enough to just igore it all and continue your phony conviction.
Maybe you should rethink where the devil is really luring before continuing to go on your childish rampages. The entire Bible is a symphony of an omnipotent being who predestines everything and yet people still choose. Calvinists just accept the fact that are choices are predestined and that free will is impossible. That is the preeminance of God and you Arminians just don't get it.
Your entire argument has always been a fabrication and a misrepresentation. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian. I simply know absurdity when I see it, and a lot of you Arminians act like fools trying to divide Christendom over a relatively simple matter of free will vs predestination.
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
March 16th, 2012, 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickCharles
Nope.
And you would ignore context on most of them.
I don't believe it contains contradictions. And, unlike you, I believe all of it.
No, I've actually exegete it on this forum. It says God justifies those He calls. And He calls those He predestines to salvation.
he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Seems pretty straight forward.
I don't even see the word humanity in there. You are just making that up.
Nothing about humanity.
Man does have a choice. No argument from me.
<*(((><
You don't get it. As long as you embrace a religion you will never get it.
The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the new Adam and humanities representative. Christ in heaven at the right hand of God means that "Jesus is Lord" he has overcome and has defeated sin, death and the devil. God now sees all of humanity in Jesus Christ, we are complete in him, Colossians 2:10.
The word human or humanity is not in the Bible. It is implied. Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world or all of humanity. John 12:47.
Romans 5:15, the free gift for all.
Romans 5:16, the free gift unto justification
Romans 5:17, abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.
Romans 5:18, the free gift for ALL men.
Romans 5:19. many shall be MADE righteous.
These scriptures show that Christ has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.
Slogan/motto:
Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.
Reputation:
March 16th, 2012, 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sum1sGruj
Your mind is in a tiny little bubble. You simply refuse to see how it works, and continuously beat a straw man. You have been shown out of the hundred threads you have made by every single Calvinist on this site, and you are disrespectful enough to just igore it all and continue your phony conviction.
Maybe you should rethink where the devil is really luring before continuing to go on your childish rampages. The entire Bible is a symphony of an omnipotent being who predestines everything and yet people still choose. Calvinists just accept the fact that are choices are predestined and that free will is impossible. That is the preeminance of God and you Arminians just don't get it.
Your entire argument has always been a fabrication and a misrepresentation. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. I'm not a Calvinist or an Arminian. I simply know absurdity when I see it, and a lot of you Arminians act like fools trying to divide Christendom over a relatively simple matter of free will vs predestination.
It is the work of Satan to undermine the glorious work that God has done in Jesus Christ to redeem lost humanity.
That was the work of Satan, to annoy God as adversary and arch-pest; then to offer us redemption, in Christ. You get saved and it is, "get behind me Satan", for good!
chess
Evoken, where are you?
believe it!
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