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Did not Jesus say that all power was given to him by his father?
I wonder what he meant. I guess he did not have it and his God gave it to him, like when the dove landed on him. Hey, that's an interesting thought.
Why would the Father give the Son all power? Back to Colossians 1:15-18
Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
He is eternal deity with the Father before the earth began.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Unfortunately you don't have scriptures to back that up. Jesus was clear about the subject: we are all called Gods. You can even go back to Genesis where God himself said 'the man has become like one of us.' Also, I have no idea what you mean by 'structure, not qualitiative disposition'. I doubt that you have any idea either.
First, we are not "all called Gods." The judges of Israel were called gods because they spoke for God as according to the Law. They obviously were not Gods because they died like men.
Second, concerning Genesis, God said man now knew the difference between good and evil...not that they had become like God in any other respect.
Gen. 22-23 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
I'm not saying that Jesus is not God. But if you want to get out of the endless rounds of arguments on the subject you need to consider
1) That human beings are not as weak as you think they are. It is no dishonour that God should be a man. We are not 'just men'.
2) That being God isn't necessarily what you think it is either. As has been discussed, we are called Gods and worship is given to a lot of people, including kings, emperors, etc., as well as Jesus.
What is clear from scripture is that Jesus is ranked alongside God the father when it comes to honour and worship. He is united with God the father in spirit (i.e. in his intentions and plans) and sits beside him on the throne. So if you want to worship him as God, then that is quite fine by me. You can make him God by your worship, you can 'enthrone him, proclaim him your king' as the song goes. I am sure he would appreciate that. But if you don't have a clear idea about what it means to be God or to be human, then what's the point in arguing where Jesus fits into this?
Human being are weaker than you think they are. They are creatures, and they will die in their sins unable to do a single thing about it on their own. Jesus is the Lord of Creation...It most certainly is a dishonour to say He is merely one of His creatures. This kind of talk is pure humanism at it's finest, and it's exactly what Paul was talking about in this text....
Romans 1:21-22a Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
Who art thou, oh man?
Job 38:1-6
Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
glorydaz:
The Hebrew word for judge and God are the same. I don't think you have grasped this. Anyone could become a judge. The word for God in Hebrew is judge. God=Judge. By becoming judges they became Gods.
Romans 1 is talking about certain people, not all. However this scripture is talking about mankind generally: Psalm 8:1-5 and it is not exactly as disparaging about man as perhaps you would like to think.
You said
Quote:
It most certainly is a dishonour to say He is merely one of His creatures.
Firstly I didn't say 'one of his creatures' - you created a straw man there.
But the 'merely' is exactly what I am questioning. Man is not 'merely' anything.
As to Job, you weren't there at the foundation of the world either so we are both in the same boat. You said:
Quote:
They are creatures, and they will die in their sins unable to do a single thing about it on their own.
But Jesus was also a man. You believe that don't you? But he didn't die in his sins, did he?
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
glorydaz:
The Hebrew word for judge and God are the same. I don't think you have grasped this. Anyone could become a judge. The word for God in Hebrew is judge. God=Judge. By becoming judges they became Gods.
Well, not anyone could become a judge, and being a judge didn't make them "Gods." They died like any other man, and the system of judges became corrupt after a time.
Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the system of judges God set up for Israel. When someone came before the Judges they were said to be standing before the Lord. And that is the only thing Jesus was talking about when He said they were called "gods".
Deuteronomy 19:17
Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
Judges 2:18
And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
Romans 1 is talking about certain people, not all. However this scripture is talking about mankind generally: Psalm 8:1-5 and it is not exactly as disparaging about man as perhaps you would like to think.
I was contrasting men and God. Surely you see the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
You said
Firstly I didn't say 'one of his creatures' - you created a straw man there.
But the 'merely' is exactly what I am questioning. Man is not 'merely' anything.
As to Job, you weren't there at the foundation of the world either so we are both in the same boat. You said:
But Jesus was also a man. You believe that don't you? But he didn't die in his sins, did he?
Yes, Jesus was fully man and bore the sin of mankind in His body at the cross...without any sin of His own.
Man was incapable of bearing his own sin, there were none righteous, so God had to do it for us. That's the point of this entire question of the deity of Christ. NO MAN could have done what Jesus did, else it would have been done by Elijah or some other. Why was it that Jesus could do what no other man could?
He was God come in the flesh. He didn't divest Himself of His Divine Nature. His was the Divine Will. He knew God better than any man could...because He knew Himself. He willingly took on the form of a servant and walked in obedience to the Divine Will. Although tempted as we are, He had the very Mind of God. He was LOVE in human flesh.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 17th, 2012, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glorydaz
Yes, Jesus was fully man and bore the sin of mankind in His body at the cross...without any sin of His own.
Man was incapable of bearing his own sin, there were none righteous, so God had to do it for us. That's the point of this entire question of the deity of Christ. NO MAN could have done what Jesus did, else it would have been done by Elijah or some other. Why was it that Jesus could do what no other man could?
Jesus was raised up by God, NOT that Jesus was God. Jesus is a man fathered by God. Jesus went to the cross in his own faith.--
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
You fail to believe the record that God has given of his son.
Quote:
He was God come in the flesh. He didn't divest Himself of His Divine Nature. His was the Divine Will. He knew God better than any man could...because He knew Himself. He willingly took on the form of a servant and walked in obedience to the Divine Will. Although tempted as we are, He had the very Mind of God. He was LOVE in human flesh.
Jesus said--
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
I do not recall saying those things you quoted above?
Why would the Father give the Son all power? Back to Colossians 1:15-18
Colossians 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
He is eternal deity with the Father before the earth began.
He came into being long before the earth was formed.
We are not told how long that was. But we are told that he is the first of creation and that he is an exact copy of his God. That in effect created another God. This spirit, lets call it the WORD, God used to create all. It was done THROUGH him, he is a FORM of GOD.
Jesus was not born with this WORD in him. He had to grow in wisdom like every man. But at age 30, God put the WORD in Jesus. With the WORD came deity. When he was on the cross, God took the WORD back so he could die. It was then that Jesus gave up his own spirit and died. Three days later GOD raised him. That is what I get out of the NT.
These are my thoughts friend.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
How could you miss the Trinity in what you just mentioned?
YES, HE WAS AN EXACT COPY OF THE FATHER.
Apple God is spirit, we call him father, but he is spirit. a copy of the spirit was made by God. That is why Jesus has a God over him. Even if he is a God he is not THE God.
Does the words Most Holy ring a bell? Most Holy is the true God. to be most holy, there must be some one under you. the Apostle Paul tells is we have ONE GOD AND ONE LORD. One is greater than the other. One is the IMAGE of the other. That is why I keep say Jesus has a God but his father does not.
The difference between your beliefs and mine are that I know that Jesus is created both in the flesh and in the spirit.
Jesus was not born with this spirit, it came to him at his baptizm.
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Scripture states that Jesus raised Himself from the grave - therefore, Jesus is God.
Where Apple?
Jesus was dead, he could not raise himself.
Nowhere does it say that he raised himself.
He said he had the power, but he could not do it. His father did. God took that power back before he died on the cross. Remember him saying "Why have you forsaken me?". What did he mean by that?
God giveth, God taketh back.
Now his God has made him Lord, AMEN
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
He came into being long before the earth was formed.
We are not told how long that was. But we are told that he is the first of creation and that he is an exact copy of his God. That in effect created another God. This spirit, lets call it the WORD, God used to create all. It was done THROUGH him, he is a FORM of GOD.
Jesus was not born with this WORD in him. He had to grow in wisdom like every man. But at age 30, God put the WORD in Jesus. With the WORD came deity. When he was on the cross, God took the WORD back so he could die. It was then that Jesus gave up his own spirit and died. Three days later GOD raised him. That is what I get out of the NT.
These are my thoughts friend.
You are confusing the firstborn from the dead with the first creation. The Genesis account said that God created the heavens and the earth. We see nothing about Him creating His Son. I think if you check Jesus said He could lay down His life and raise it up again. Being God, He had the ability to do this.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
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