[1PeaceMaker]

Originally Posted by Granite

The would-be little caesars running around talking about being "citizen sovereigns" or "citizen magistrates" aren't people I'd trust as dogcatcher, let alone any position with real, actual authority.

How do you feel about Ron Paul? Are you a libertarian or what? I think your political orientation must have changed in the past ten years because I thought you were a Libertarian. I must be thinking of someone else, I guess.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Clete's argument is simple. He thinks it's wrong to collect taxes for public services like schools.

He's a co-reagent.

He's a spoiled little kid, who can't understand why he can't make everyone else do it his way.

If we can't respect mutual authority then we are in big trouble.

Clete has the same authority all the rest of us do. But that's not enough for him.

Barbarian observes:
And he's throwing a tantrum because the rest of us don't want to do it his way.

You mean he's throwing a debate thread.

Tantrum. He's not interested in changing minds; he's denying that people have the right to choose how they will be taxed and for what.

Join the party. Don't poop on the festivities with an uppity attitude.

That's Clete's position, isn't it? If a society chooses to stop public schooling, that's their right. Likewise, if they want to have public schooling, that's their right too. Clete needs to get over the idea that he has a veto over the rest of us.

If you don't respect his rights and influence over our policies, then you are advocating something other than rule by the true Caesar, "We the people." Render unto him what is his, the right to speak and be heard.

He has no more rights and influence than anyone else. And no one is denying his right to speak. He's entitled to say what he likes (within Knight's rules) but he's not entitled to suppress any criticism of his ideas.

Barbarian suggests:
It would be easier for everyone, including Clete, if he'd just move somewhere that people don't have school taxes.

It's disrespectful to everyone when you don't acknowledge his individual power to bring change and influence to where he lives.

He's got the same power the rest of us do. What gripes him is that he can't make all the rest of us do it his way.

Barbarian observes:
Of course, Clete thinks it would be easier, if he could just make us all do it his way.

Because he wouldn't be interested in doing it the hard way and changing your minds, now, would he?

Given his behavior here, it appears not.

I just want to SMACK you. Truthsmack you, that is.

I'm into science. That happens to me almost every day.

[Granite]

Originally Posted by 1PeaceMaker

How do you feel about Ron Paul? Are you a libertarian or what? I think your political orientation must have changed in the past ten years because I thought you were a Libertarian. I must be thinking of someone else, I guess.

I voted for the guy. I'm libertarianesque in my political philosophy but I'm not as extreme as, say, the NH Free Staters.

[Trumpetfolker]

Clete,
Your focusing on fruit that grows on a tree the root of which is the love of money. And, because undiscipled Christians love money, they keep endorsing government that ever increases national debt.
As long as they do that,
they yoke themselves to unbelievers as servants to the lenders.
As servants, if the lending masters of the government/you/unbelievers say they want your children educated a certain way, you have to oblige them.
If you joined in the process of choosing the government that agreed to serve the bankers, you fave them the right to put their hands in your pockets and on your kids.
Tuff noogies, huh?
If churches had done a better job teaching the nations to observe the commandments of Paul, they wouldn't have this problem.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by Trumpetfolker

Clete,
Your focusing on fruit that grows on a tree the root of which is the love of money. And, because undiscipled Christians love money, they keep endorsing government that ever increases national debt.

You do not understand money nor what it means to love it but leaving that aside...

As long as they do that,
they yoke themselves to unbelievers as servants to the lenders.

You'd make a great Jew.

As servants, if the lending masters of the government/you/unbelievers say they want your children educated a certain way, you have to oblige them.

Why?
This line of thinking makes no sense.

If you joined in the process of choosing the government that agreed to serve the bankers, you fave them the right to put their hands in your pockets and on your kids.
Tuff noogies, huh?

You need a new propagandist.

If churches had done a better job teaching the nations to observe the commandments of Paul, they wouldn't have this problem.

Virtually nothing you have would exist if not for bankers, their money and their willingness to lend it!
Debt is not a sin nor does it equate to slavery. Money is not evil, nor is the love of it (per se) and loaning it out is not a sin and neither is earning interest. Money at work is a GOOD thing! If you think the Bible teaches otherwise, stop attending whatever church you go to, read the Bible for yourself and then begin the search for a decent church that avoids mindless cliches.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Trumpetfolker]

Dear Clete,
You don't have the knowledge of God.

Virtually nothing you have would exist if not for bankers, their money and their willingness to lend it!
Debt is not a sin nor does it equate to slavery. Money is not evil, nor is the love of it (per se) and loaning it out is not a sin and neither is earning interest. Money at work is a GOOD thing! If you think the Bible teaches otherwise, stop attending whatever church you go to, read the Bible for yourself and then begin the search for a decent church that avoids mindless cliches.

For one thing, God told us borrowers were servants of lenders.

Pr 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Because of bankers and lending, I have nothing of value, anyway. Their business keeps inflating prices so that jobs have to be taken from guys like me and given to foreigners.

Lu 6:34 - 35 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Lending for interest is against the will of God. Plain and simple. Sinners just lend to get principal back. Usurers are worse than sinners.
I quit going to church a while back because they will not teach the words of Jesus.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
6 ¶ But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

In the millennium (whatever that is), no one will buy from the merchants.

Re 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Why? Because Great Babylon, whose great men are merchants, will be destroyed.

Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Money does not work. It offers men a way to defraud those who do.

Ac 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

2 Th 3:6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

The fact is that you are commanded to do nto others as you would have others do unto you.

Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

If you want others to make you rich at their expense, do the same. Make them rich at your expense just as God's Son showed us.

2 Co. 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

Yeah. I work. I have done real work with my own hands. However, because lazy, greedy Americans want an economy that is funded by debt hoping they won't have to pay it, I can't get paid any where near what my work is worth.
Believe me, I understand money.
While Reagan was still prez (what a bushwhacker), I began telling people what his policies would do to America. Taking from the poor and giving to the rich makes you poor.

Pr 22:16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

Talking (sales, teaching, lending, insurance- their all talkers) rather than working makes people poor.

Pr 14:23 In all labour there is profit: but the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury.

When a nation feels itself getting poor, it wants to increase debt. I already showed that scripture that says the poor are the slaves of the lender.
Oh, well. Since you love money more than the knowledge of God, you will dodge this stuff. But you won't be able to dodge the lord who avenges the victims of fraud.

1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

[Clete]

Originally Posted by Trumpetfolker

Dear Clete,
You don't have the knowledge of God.

For one thing, God told us borrowers were servants of lenders.

Because of bankers and lending, I have nothing of value, anyway. Their business keeps inflating prices so that jobs have to be taken from guys like me and given to foreigners.

Lending for interest is against the will of God. Plain and simple. Sinners just lend to get principal back. Usurers are worse than sinners.
I quit going to church a while back because they will not teach the words of Jesus.

In the millennium (whatever that is), no one will buy from the merchants.

Why? Because Great Babylon, whose great men are merchants, will be destroyed.

Money does not work. It offers men a way to defraud those who do.

The fact is that you are commanded to do nto others as you would have others do unto you.

If you want others to make you rich at their expense, do the same. Make them rich at your expense just as God's Son showed us.

Yeah. I work. I have done real work with my own hands. However, because lazy, greedy Americans want an economy that is funded by debt hoping they won't have to pay it, I can't get paid any where near what my work is worth.
Believe me, I understand money.
While Reagan was still prez (what a bushwhacker), I began telling people what his policies would do to America. Taking from the poor and giving to the rich makes you poor.

Talking (sales, teaching, lending, insurance- their all talkers) rather than working makes people poor.

When a nation feels itself getting poor, it wants to increase debt. I already showed that scripture that says the poor are the slaves of the lender.
Oh, well. Since you love money more than the knowledge of God, you will dodge this stuff. But you won't be able to dodge the lord who avenges the victims of fraud.

It astounds me the lengths people go to to twist the truth into a lie and a lie into the truth.

I have no intention of debating this with you. There is nothing anyone could ever say to convince you that you are wrong, that the premise upon which you've built your life is false and that it is this false premise that has destroyed your ability to succeed, not the rich boogy-men you see behind every bush. No one could even convince you of what that premise is, never mind convince you to reject it. You're blind. Not because you are unable to see, but because you choose not to.

And no, that was not an argument I just made. Don't bother attempting to refute me. I won't read it. I refuse to waste my time attempting to debate fools.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Trumpetfolker]

About Clete's MAD-typical retort,
I, a man who supported his wife as she homeschooled his 3 kids for many years, presented a response to the question about public education. Even though my response was filled with God's Word, Clete despised my premise.
Obviously, my premise was that God's Word was relevant, yet, I got a MAD-typical retort. MAD-typical retorts feature...
1) ad hominem - call names. Base your entire retort on labels easily applied to person with whom you disagree because you disagree and labels are all you got. It does'nt matter how people disagree. There are labels for every POV.
2) Either scripture is ignored entirely, or, they use a scripture that is obscure enough one can, probably, get away with misusing it in the grossest way.
3) They make presumptious claims and defend them with nothing except loud revilings painted broadly on people who see it another way.
This is open-theism where ever it finds room because, to an open-theist, God's throne is open. The only rule, to them, is 'There are no rules'.
Can you say 'Mystery of iniquity'?
Since the God-position isn't filled in their minds, it is important for Christians to resist them by learning, obeying, and declaring the commandments of Christ, Paul, and the other apostles.
True Christians can let/restrain/hinder these men of sin who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness by being the Lord's redeemed people zealous of good works which were before ordained that we should walk in them.