Exclusively Christian TheologyThis forum is exclusively for those who consider themselves Christian and consider the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit (by virtue of the indwelling of the Trinity) is for faith unto salvation.
Contrasting, the coming upon the believer by the Holy Spirit, is unto power and the supernatural gifts. This is rare for believers today, esp in the developed world where doctrine has unfortunately supplanted experience.
Where you are wrong, Lazy, is on the understanding that one can believe in Christ without the Holy Spirit. This is where a Calvinist understanding of regeneration is vital: no-one can believe in Christ without the Holy Spirit.
So the Samaritans had the Holy Spirit before Peter and John laid their hands on them so that the Holy Spirit might come upon them.
All in Christ, whether Abraham or David or Esther etc, right up until now, have the Holy Spirit. Salvation has always been via the same mechanism: faith in Christ via the witness of the Holy Spirit to the believer, for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and one cannot know the Truth who is Christ, without the Spirit of Truth.
Moses' faith was in Christ, and so Moses had the Holy Spirit.
Job had the Holy Spirit. Seth had the Holy Spirit. David said: "take not thy Holy Spirit from me".
The difference in the NT, is the Baptism in the Spirit unto supernatural gifts. This is described as a coming upon the believer, not an indwelling.
Sometimes in Acts this coming upon is described as "receiving the Holy Spirit", but it is a receiving in the sense of being immersed in the Spirit unto power, a coming upon the believer by the Spirit. This is not salvation, but power.
One who is baptised in the Spirit is no 'better' than one who is not: they are both brothers in Christ. It's just that those who are baptised in the Spirit are earmarked more for demonic attack, and operate in a more-directly experiential mode.
Most believers today are not baptised in the Spirit simply because their pastors don't know about it themselves, and bible colleges don't understand it either. So there are few people around who are annointed to be able to 'bestow' the Baptism in the Spirit on believers.
That being said, God often baptises people in the Spirit without the agency of man: Charles Finney was dismissing his butler one evening, and as he walked into another room, the Holy Spirit fell on him without notice so powerfully in waves and waves of love that he had to ask the Lord to stop!
D. L Moody was a fine Christian preacher and brother before he was baptised in the Spirit. Eventually when he was baptised in the Spirit, instead of 10s coming to the Lord, 100s and 1000s came to the Lord through the same message, for the message then was spoken in the power of the Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit basically has two main functions:
1. Regeneration (this is the main function). This applies to all believers.
2. Power and the supernatural gifts. This was the norm in apostolic days, but is much rarer now. Although in third world countries where believers' faith is less cerebrally-delineated, it is more common.
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
April 5th, 2012, 05:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
To suggest that nothing is required of the believer other than the work of Christ on the cross to share in the inheritance of the saints is a rejection of the entire Bible truth, which is why some believers never change for the better as those who perished in the wilderness without remedy.
LA
Titus 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
"clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why"~john w
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
April 5th, 2012, 05:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossians
"Most believers today are not baptised in the Spirit..."
Right. Those who trust the Lord in the dispensation of the grace of God are baptized BY one Spirit into the one body afer they hear and believe the word of truth (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.
1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Titus 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
"clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why"~john w
This is an example of someone who does not know the PURPOSE of salvation.
Of course we are all freely justified, in order to be saved..we cannot save ourself. It is a free gift, but afterwards there is WORK to do.
Works of love, given us, through that free gift.
No one could be justified, by the old covenant system of law. Jesus came to freely justify men, and give us a free gift, but, at the same time, through that gift, He gave us POWER to obey Him, and it is UNBELIEF to claim you don't have to.
LA was right...you are wrong.
You want the free gift, but you do not want the responsibility that comes along with it...to whom much is given, MUCH is required; NOT works of the law of moses, but works of LOVE..and, where there is salvation, you will find it...or be cut off, if you deny HIM.
Slogan/motto:
2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Reputation:
April 5th, 2012, 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
This is an example of someone who does not know the PURPOSE of salvation.
Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Where you are wrong, Lazy, is on the understanding that one can believe in Christ without the Holy Spirit. This is where a Calvinist understanding of regeneration is vital: no-one can believe in Christ without the Holy Spirit.
We 'believe' in Christ, through a leap of faith; that means, we do not YET have the indwelling Holy Spirit; we do not YET understand, but we believe anyway...as did Abraham, who went up to sacrifice his own son, not seeing, or understanding why God would demand that, but simply obeyed, believing the words of God...and afterwards, received the promise of salvation, because he 'chose' to believe by faith.
Faith is hope in things UNSEEN..not in things seen.
Faith cometh by 'hearing' the word and accepting it, initially without any AID of the Holy Spirit; for it is our 'freewill' choice, to believe, that He wants and desires. This is initial faith....having eyes that do not see, yet believe.
John 20 :28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Jesus told many that they sought a sign...in order to believe, and He rebuked that mindset.
This is why Calvinism is wrong, in mho, it teaches a salvation that does NOT require 'faith' on the part of the believer.
I do agree with you on the fact that the 'second' sealing is not receiving the initial Holy Spirit, that comes, by BELIEVING, but your ideas that we believe because we see, is wrong.
Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Yes, now how does the bible define grace?
Is it powerless to change your actions, like you teach?
No, it is the power of God, to live a sober and righteouss life, in this age...so that others can see the good things of God, and desire the same.
Just because we are freely saved, does not mean we do not have a LIFE to live..afterwards.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious F9 appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
If you only want the free gift, you are not in the grace of God.
It has power to change your life, via love...this is what I am saying.
It is unbelief to claim it does not change you or make you into a new creation; one that DESIRES to obey from the heart circumcision, due to the fact that HE has made you free from bondage to serve in SPIRIT. LOVE is that main key.
Most believers today are not baptised in the Spirit Right. Those who trust the Lord in the dispensation of the grace of God are baptized BY one Spirit into the one body afer they hear and believe the word of truth (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and are sealed with that holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.
You've said "right", and then gone straight ahead and declared the very opposite of what I said.
1. We are baptised into the Body at the same time as we believe: believing in Christ and being baptised into Christ are the same thing. So we are not baptised into the Body after we believe, but at exactly the same time as we believe.
2. The seal of the Holy Spirit is not a seal as in "signed, sealed, delivered": it is not something which indicates the irreversibility of salvation, for all who believe in Christ are irreversibly saved anyway, and the seal mentioned by Paul is that which had occurred after those to whom he wrote had believed.
So the seal has nothing to do with salvation, but power: it is simply a mark on the believer which indicates power. It is the result of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is not the same thing as the indwelling by the Holy Spirit unto salvation.
So the Samaritans who believed in Christ were irreversibly saved under the ministry of Philip, and then they received the seal of power once the Holy Spirit came upon them after Peter and John laid their hands on them. So they had the Holy Spirit within them at their conversion under Philip, but had not yet received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which occurred under Peter and John.
As I said, most believers today are not baptised in the Holy Spirit: they have the Holy Spirit unto regeneration, which is synomymous with believing in Christ, but have not had the Holy Spirit come upon them unto power and the supernatural gifts.
Last edited by Colossians; April 6th, 2012 at 05:21 AM.
Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
What are the riches of His grace, according to the word of God?
That we continue to live sinful lives? Or..is it possible that grace has more power than that?
Colossians;3032325]We 'believe' in Christ, through a leap of faith
Col:
Quote:
An ignorant statement.
no it is not, if you understand initial faith...(I was not referring to the perfected faith, but the initial faith).
As carnal, we believe, without knowing...this is what initial faith is about....believing, even though, we do not understand fully.
Quote:
Believing and faith are the same thing. We don't believe through a leap of believing.
So you'll have to think this one through again.
Again, I was referring to how at the beginning of salvation/initial faith; our faith is not complete...made perfect, by love.
Would you like some examples?
I said:
Quote:
initially without any AID of the Holy Spirit
Col:
Quote:
No.
Faith is a gift of God. So it is always by the Holy Spirit.
Your idea is humanism, not Christianity.
You are not understaning the intent in which I am saying it.
When we are first saved, we do NOT SEE HIM FACE TO FACE....WE ENTER IN THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY....AND, THEN, ONCE HE COMES IN; WE SEE HIM FACE TO FACE.
I don't think you understand what I am saying, for if you did, you would not disagree.
No one is saved until they of their own freewill CHOOSE to believe.
It is leap of faith for sinners, who are yet carnal, to make that choice, but God has created humans with the ability to do that very thing..you can keep pretending He did not, but in the new covenant, He has reconciled men back to Himself..all men....and, we receive the power to be saved, by simply taking that leap of faith, when we hear the good news of that reconciliation.
I agree...the initial faith comes from the Holy Spirit working on the outside of men, however....this is why it is a leap of faith...then, He comes IN, and we see Him face to face.
I was not saying it was not by the Holy Spirit; (initial faith), but that Spirit is on the outside...knocking on the doors of our hearts.
WE have to believe, to let Him in.
Salvation is relational..He does not force the door open....at any time...whether initially, or afterwards..the Holy Spirit is gentle as a dove....never forceful.
Do you agree with that?
The ONLY time the Holy Spirit is said to be something other than 'gentle', is when someone is undergoing the WRATH of God...and, many need to experience it, in order to get BACK in the gospel...which is why He hands such over to satan, to work that wrath. There is TOUGH love, in agape love, too...for He does correct every son He loves...and, He loves us all.
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
's of the gospel.
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