[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by Letsargue

Bible = Books!!

There's but one Bible / Books --- "And the Books were opened and another Book which is the BOOK of Life"!! - That is the Old Testament / Books, -- and the New Testament / the Book of Life!! --- There is NO OTHER "BOOK"!!!!!!!!

Paul -- 040912

You mean I should read the book of life.

[rainee]

Hi and greetings,
AS other probably do also - I appreciate very much the details you gave in your post, thank you.

May I ask some questions about what you posted?

Originally Posted by Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov

...

Late in the afternoon of Nisan 14th the Pésaḥ lambs or kids (baby goats, not children) would be slaughtered, bled, flayed and taken home to roast over an open fire. The Séder begins at around 8:00 – 9:00 pm on Nisan 15th. The Torah explicitly states several times that the Pésaḥ animal was to be slaughtered at – בֵּין הָעַרְבָּיִם – bén haʿar’bayim or “midst of the evenings,” or dusk, on Nisan 14th, which is shortly before Nisan 15th, which begins at sunset.

To put this in a way which is hopefully easier to comprehend, it would be the same as slaughtering and cleaning an animal at around 9:00 or 10 pm, begin cooking it at around 10:00 or 11:00 pm, and then begin eating it at around 1:00 or 2:00 am. The animal was slaughtered on April 6th and it was eaten on April 7th.

This above was particularly interesting to me, is this above that you are talking about what I have seen called the Korban Pesach, the sacrifice?
If so then...

Originally Posted by Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov

It is exactly the same, the animal is slaughtered, cleaned, and begins cooking during dusk of Nisan 14th and eaten after sunset which is now Nisan 15th. This is how Pésaḥ has been done every year for nearly 3,500 years (specifically 1476 BCE).

So to further simplify this: the animal is slaughtered and begins cooking at the very end of Nisan 14th; the animal finishes cooking and is eaten at the beginning of Nisan 15th.

This above is a description of eating roasted lamb to commemorate the sacrifice of roasted lamb? I only very recently learned that there is a Sephardic tradition to eat part of a roasted lamb in memory but perhaps the entire roasted lamb is eaten?

Originally Posted by Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov

The destroyer came at midnight and ʿAm Yis’raél left Mitz’rayim just before dawn. They crossed the Suf Sea, which had been opened by God, on Nisan 21st. They were followed by the Egyptian armies who drowned when God released the Sea. With no Egyptian army left to pursue them, the bread of haste was no longer necessary. That is why the Festival of Passover is seven days long. It is God’s command that the first day of Ḥag Pésaḥ, Nisan 15th and the last day of Ḥag Pésaḥ, Nisan 21st are Shabbatot.

That part above is very edifying to me, thanks again.

[Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov]

Shalom Rainee,

Originally Posted by rainee

This above was particularly interesting to me, is this above that you are talking about what I have seen called the Korban Pesach, the sacrifice? If so then...

I think you may be slightly confused about the events of the first Pésaḥ and subsequent ones. There is no mention of any type of Qor’ban Pésaḥ found within the account of the tenth plague. In fact there is only one location in the Hebrew Scriptures where the two words appear in the same p’suq. They are separated by five words and a paseq (sort of the Hebrew equivalent of a semi-colon), B’midvar 9:13/Numbers 9:13 (the words Passover and offering if you hover over their link). The Hebrew word – קׇרְבַן– qor’ban refers to a burnt offering made upon the altar.

There was no way to perform a proper sacrifice in Mitz’rayim (Egypt); the Priesthood had not yet been established; and there was no alter or Mish’kan.

There were 600,000 adult Hebrew males which participated in the first Passover, which means there were between 300,000 – 600,000 lambs/kids slaughtered that afternoon, depending upon the sizes of the households. Each animal was slaughtered in front of each home in which it was to be eaten. The blood from the animal slaughtered at each home was smeared on the doorposts and lintels.

Originally Posted by rainee

This above is a description of eating roasted lamb to commemorate the sacrifice of roasted lamb? I only very recently learned that there is a Sephardic tradition to eat part of a roasted lamb in memory but perhaps the entire roasted lamb is eaten?

Pésaḥ is a national festival; each household provides and slaughters their own animal. There was at no time any single special animal that was used for some type of ritual purpose if that is what you are thinking.

The entire animal was to be eaten by each household that night; anything left over was to be incinerated before the sun began to rise.

Hopefully this satisfies your inquiry. If it does not feel free to ask more questions.

[Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

According to the Torah, Passover happens at night after the 14th day and ends before the morning of the 15th day, but the Feast of Unleavened bread lasts from the time the sun goes down after the 14th day until the sun goes down after the 21st day.

I am not certain precisely what type of point you are trying to make. It would appear that you said the same thing twice.

The original Pésaḥ began at sometime after 6:10 pm March 25th 1476 BCE. The animals were probably slaughtered at around 3:00 - 4:00 pm March 25th 1476 BCE, which was still the 14th. They were probably finished cooking and ready to be eaten by 8:00 pm or so, which was now the 15th .

Are you trying to say that Pésaḥ only lasts for 8 or 9 hours? If so, then why is today Pésaḥ VI? Pésaḥ has been 7 days long for 3,487 years.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov

I am not certain precisely what type of point you are trying to make. It would appear that you said the same thing twice.

The original Pésaḥ began at sometime after 6:10 pm March 25th 1476 BCE. The animals were probably slaughtered at around 3:00 - 4:00 pm March 25th 1476 BCE, which was still the 14th. They were probably finished cooking and ready to be eaten by 8:00 pm or so, which was now the 15th .

Are you trying to say that Pésaḥ only lasts for 8 or 9 hours? If so, then why is today Pésaḥ VI? Pésaḥ has been 7 days long for 3,487 years.

You are confused.

The day ends at sunset, the day begins at sunrise. The day does not begin at sunset, despite your tradition. The fifteenth day does not begin until sunrise after the end of the fourteenth day.

Passover is only one night long. Passover is not seven days long, despite your tradition. Passover begins at the end of the fourteenth day and ends before the fifteenth day begins. The Feast of Unleavened is not the Passover, despite your tradition. The Feast of Unleavened begins when the sun goes down at the end of the fourteenth day, (so it begins at the same time as the Passover begins), but it doesn't end until the sun goes down at the end of the twenty-first day.

It is in the Torah.

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

You are confused.

The day ends at sunset, the day begins at sunrise. The day does not begin at sunset, despite your tradition. The fifteenth day does not begin until sunrise after the end of the fourteenth day.

Passover is only one night long. Passover is not seven days long, despite your tradition. Passover begins at the end of the fourteenth day and ends before the fifteenth day begins. The Feast of Unleavened is not the Passover, despite your tradition. The Feast of Unleavened begins when the sun goes down at the end of the fourteenth day, (so it begins at the same time as the Passover begins), but it doesn't end until the sun goes down at the end of the twenty-first day.

It is in the Torah.

You are saying two things... that the 15th begins when the sun rises following the 14th and that the 15th begins when the sun sets, following the day of the 14th. Do you know when the 14th ends?

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

You are saying two things... that the 15th begins when the sun rises following the 14th and that the 15th begins when the sun sets, following the day of the 14th. Do you know when the 14th ends?

Please show me where I stated that the 15th day begins when the sun sets. I believe I was quite clear that the 15th day begins when the sun RISES.

[Letsargue]

Originally Posted by AlephTav

This is a good explanation of things. If I may add a little bit.....

Trying to figure out the Hebrew days and calendar can be confusing as there are all sorts of different interpretations, and different calculations depending on the calendar. Very briefly, the dates you see in the Bible are based strictly on Agriculture (an annual spotting of the barley) and hence, the New Moon. The Jewish calendars used today are based on calculations of the new moon that were set up hundreds of yeats ago. That is why you see additional months and days added to account for the difference in lunar cycles compared to the Gregorian solar calendar.

Given all of that, here is my personal take on it. The 1st New Moon after Abib (the spotting of the ripe barley) marks the 1st day of the 1st month. Depending on when you see it, or depending on who you listen to, Passover begins 14 days later. I personally saw the New Moon on Saturday, March 24th. We did our Passover Friday night, April 6th, the beginning of the 14th day of Abib. It's important to note that Passover itself is not a Sabbath.

Depending on how you read it (and there is still some disagreement on how it should be interpreted), Unleavened starts on either the 14th or 15th day of the month (our church is doing it on the 15th).
Exo 12:19 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening."

The 1st and 7th days of the Feast are holy convocations, or Sabbaths.
Exo 12:16 "On the first day you shall have a holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except what must be eaten by every person, that alone may be prepared by you."

So practically, we did Passover on Friday night and Saturday April 7th (which is normal Sabbath). The 1st day of Unleavened is then Sunday April 8th, which is a Sabbath.. The 7th day of Unleavened is then Saturday, April 14th. That then begins the counting of 50 days until Shavuot, or Pentecost (Lev 23:15-16).



This is not Scriptural.



Abib is the Biblical Hebrew name of the 1st month. Nissan is the Babylonian name of the 1st month, which Israel learned during the Babylonian exile.



Again, not Scriptural, or factual. According to Biblical standards, Abib 1 began Saturday, March 24th due to the New Moon being sighted. A Jewish calendar will tell you the same thing (give or take a day depending on their calculation).



Again, a good explanation of things.

So in conclusion:
Passover = Saturday April 7th (a normal 7th day Sabbath)
1st day of Unleavened = Sunday April 8th (a Sabbath)
7th day of Unleavened = Saturday April 14th (a normal 7th day Sabbath AND a sabbath for the 7th day of Unleavened)
Shavuot/Pentecost = Sunday May 27th (7 Sabbaths from the 1st Day of Unleavened + 1 day)

Hope this helps clear things up for you.

Blessings,
AT

IF THERE'S A PASSOVER IN EFFECT, THEN YOU AND I "MUST KEEP IT"!!! - SOO you just go on and keep it if it's still being enforced!!! - I can't keep it because it's not in force now after the final coming!! - But that's nothing to you, just the PASSOVER!!!

Paul -- 041212

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Letsargue

IF THERE'S A PASSOVER IN EFFECT, THEN YOU AND I "MUST KEEP IT"!!! - SOO you just go on and keep it if it's still being enforced!!! - I can't keep it because it's not in force now after the final coming!! - But that's nothing to you, just the PASSOVER!!!

Paul -- 041212

1 Corinthians 5:8 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

[Letsargue]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

Yes God did say that at one time!!! -- SOOOOO!!!!

God also said, - Colossians 2:14-15 KJV – “((( BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES THAT WAS AGAINST US ))), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS; 15- And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, TRIUMPHING “(( OVER THEM ))” “(( IN IT ))”. ------/-- “Over them IN IT!!!!!!! ---- OVER, IN W-H-A-T!!!! – “D-E-A-T-H”!!! --- Ephesians 2:16 KJV – “And that he might reconcile both unto GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby”. -------//--- ( IN “DEATH” JESUS KILLED / SLEW / “ (( MADE DEAD ))” THE ENMITY THAT WAS BETWEEN THE JEWS AND GENTILES!!!!! - THAT IS, - the Old Law and Ordinances!! --- Genesis 3:15 KJV -----//--- It is that “ENMITY”, that Jesus took out of the way while on the cross, and totally removed “it” when HE CAME IN AD70!!!!! ---- IT’S OVER GUYS!!!! – PROVE ME WRONG USING SCRIPTURE!!!!

IT’S ALL IN FRONT OF YOUR FACES, -- “GOD IS, THAT IS, - “FACE TO FACE”!!!!!


Paul – 041212

[Untellectual]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

Please show me where I stated that the 15th day begins when the sun sets. I believe I was quite clear that the 15th day begins when the sun RISES.

You said, "The Feast of Unleavened begins when the sun goes down at the end of the fourteenth day,". Now you are saying the fourteenth day really doesn't end when the sun goes down.

[AlephTav]

Originally Posted by Letsargue

IF THERE'S A PASSOVER IN EFFECT, THEN YOU AND I "MUST KEEP IT"!!! - SOO you just go on and keep it if it's still being enforced!!! - I can't keep it because it's not in force now after the final coming!! - But that's nothing to you, just the PASSOVER!!!

Paul -- 041212

I choose to celebrate Passover because God said to keep it continually for lasting generations.

I choose to celebrate Passover because it is reminder and a celebration of my salvation through Jesus' death.

If you're trying to communicate anything else, I can't tell. I don't follow your train of thought or communication very well.

Blessings,
AT

[Dena]

Originally Posted by AlephTav

I don't follow your train of thought or communication very well.

Don't feel bad...you are not the only one.

[Untellectual]

Exodus 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Untellectual

You said, "The Feast of Unleavened begins when the sun goes down at the end of the fourteenth day,". Now you are saying the fourteenth day really doesn't end when the sun goes down.

There is a period of light called "day" that begins at dawn and ends at dusk. There is a period of darkness between the days called "night" that begins at dusk and ends at dawn. When a "day" ends, it is "night." When a "night" ends, it is "day." When the 14th "day" ends at dusk, it is not the 15th "day," it is night until the dawn ends the night and begins the 15th "day."

Passover begins at the end of the 14th "day", and takes place during the night between the 14th "day" and the 15th "day".

The feast of unleavened bread begins at the end of the 14th "day" and ends at the end of the 21st "day".

Originally Posted by Untellectual

Exodus 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Yes, the Passover ends by the morning of the 15th day.