ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
See, I read this as "best attempt to answer yet from 'anybody.'"
But what it meant was "Oatmeal, (in encouragement) this is your best attempt yet (keep trying)."
Just because I missed it, don't you, Oatmeal (keep trying).
It would please me a great deal if 1) you'd embrace a triune understanding because I think it correct 2) discuss other topics instead of ones that cause disruption and division on a triune board 3) I didn't have to worry all the time about balance between truth and true biblical fellowship. The two must go together and has this board a bit more caustic by necessity than other boards, but that's because each kicks out the pains-in-the-backsides/posterior. It might be nice if arians weren't poking a stick into the hive all the time.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2012, 01:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
Well, it is the same offering as the majority of believers on the planet. I'm sorry 1) that you are so self-appointed-smart that you don't need to learn a thing nor get introspective when your answer differs from everybody else in the class 2) that you somehow think that makes you a) special b) intelligent c) right.
And 2) I already graduated a long time ago and went on and already received my MA as well. Think about it, going to a majority institution wasn't as bad as you seem to think.
You don't have to die stupid you know.
The majority of believers on the planet, if they think they are right because they are in the majority - might not be. To not consider the position of someone in the minority is a lack of humility, and lack of wisdom.
I am introspective of my position regardless of whether I am in the majority or minority. I've been questioning majority opinion ever since I went from Lutheranism (having been born again at Pacific Lutheran U.) to Baptistism and learning about water baptism. I figured if a whole denomination could be wrong about water baptism I wondered what Baptist positions I was believing were wrong also. I found out later there were quite a few. I don't revel in having a minority position, I just don't care. I just want the truth, no matter what it is. I have never thought being in the minority made me "a) special b) intelligent c) right." In fact, being in the minority is a real pain in the butt. I wish I could be w/ the majority. But I'm not going to compromise.
Lon, I've never said going to a "majority institution" was bad. I wished I had the luxury of being able to get my masters and doctors but raising 5 kids kinda puts a damper on such things. I just don't believe, however, that doing such would make me more qualified to teach or that those who have are more qualified because they have. In other words, I'm not going to look down on those who have less than the 3 years of Bible College that I do have.
Lon, I teach pastors, I want them to be convinced by the truth, not my diplomas. I trust in God, not myself. It's up to the Holy Spirit to be the one who teaches, not me. I encourage you to take on a similar Mode of Operation.
Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007
Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.
I trust in God, not myself. It's up to the Holy Spirit to be the one who teaches, not me. I encourage you to take on a similar Mode of Operation.
Modus Operandi has to include God's intention for His body. It is statistically and probability near insurmountable that you can be in the minority and be right on this point and concern. There are very few arian denominations. The ones that exist, I'm convinced, even you have major problems with. I'd like for you to think a little harder on the probability that you are correct and all the rest of us are not. It is obvious that we don't agree on a great many things. On TOL we come from about every walk and denomination, yet on this exact one thing, we are all of us, in agreement.
1) Why do you suppose that is?
2) Why would God allow it for a people that seek Him and want to find Him?
3) Why would we be so adamant that this is a core teaching from scripture and held by the church?
4) Why don't these all even make a dent in your theological perceptions?
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2012, 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
Modus Operandi has to include God's intention for His body. It is statistically and probability near insurmountable that you can be in the minority and be right on this point and concern. There are very few arian denominations. The ones that exist, I'm convinced, even you have major problems with. I'd like for you to think a little harder on the probability that you are correct and all the rest of us are not. It is obvious that we don't agree on a great many things. On TOL we come from about every walk and denomination, yet on this exact one thing, we are all of us, in agreement.
1) Why do you suppose that is?
2) Why would God allow it for a people that seek Him and want to find Him?
3) Why would we be so adamant that this is a core teaching from scripture and held by the church?
4) Why don't these all even make a dent in your theological perceptions?
For an educated fellow, you are showing amazing ignorance on a number of issues:
1) Church History - Put yourself in the shoes of church leadership on Nov. 1, 1517, the day after Martin Luther tacked his 95 Thesis on the bulletin board (the front door) of the chapel at Wittenburg. Can't you imagine them saying the same thing you are saying now. How right would they have been? They would have been stupid fools to think that since Luther was in the minority then he must be wrong and they must be right. If your reasoning were correct we should all be Catholics.
2) Statistics & Probability - You can't quantify truth by counting noses. It just doesn't work. As long as you continue to make your appeals on:
a) What most people believe,
b) What the more educated (such as yourself) believe,
You will not open your eyes to see what God is trying to teach you.
3) Current religious landscape - There are plenty of denominations that are not trinitarian. I could name a few, but it doesn't really matter.
4) Who you are talking to - I'm not Arian. Arians believe Jesus existed as a person prior to the incarnation. I don't believe he existed as anything more than a thought in God's mind, a Logos, in other words.
Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007
Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.
For an educated fellow, you are showing amazing ignorance on a number of issues:
1) Church History - Put yourself in the shoes of church leadership on Nov. 1, 1517, the day after Martin Luther tacked his 95 Thesis on the bulletin board (the front door) of the chapel at Wittenburg. Can't you imagine them saying the same thing you are saying now. How right would they have been? They would have been stupid fools to think that since Luther was in the minority then he must be wrong and they must be right. If your reasoning were correct we should all be Catholics.
I guess I can turn that around..."For an educated fellow..."
The triune God was not one of the 95. You can crawl out from under anyway you like but I'm going to laugh at you if you try the insult-intelligence angle again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krsto
2) Statistics & Probability - You can't quantify truth by counting noses. It just doesn't work. As long as you continue to make your appeals on:
a) What most people believe,
b) What the more educated (such as yourself) believe,
You will not open your eyes to see what God is trying to teach you.
Nope, I'm terribly sorry you are wrong. Poll any large group on grammatical rules, on what capitol goes to which state, etc. etc. and the majority are going to be right. Poll TOL and regardless of how much we disagree, on this particular it is only "Krysto and the Heretic Band."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krsto
3) Current religious landscape - There are plenty of denominations that are not trinitarian. I could name a few, but it doesn't really matter.
Cults. Not denominations, cults.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krsto
4) Who you are talking to - I'm not Arian. Arians believe Jesus existed as a person prior to the incarnation. I don't believe he existed as anything more than a thought in God's mind, a Logos, in other words.
worse yet and completely scripture stupid as far as I'm concerned. That's a sad admission for me from you. I honestly thought you had at least a couple of marbles left. Are you JW then? That's what they believe about Christ. Regardless --> cult.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
I've been entertaining the theology of the Father being the only true God.
If Jesus is not God, what are the implications to Christianity? I say nothing.
What say ye?
Indeed, if the God of all that is, is 'The Universal Father' of all,....then that 'God' is by nature and being....the Ancestral Source of all that is and ever will be.
It is only among those who 'assume' that Jesus must be 'God Almighty' as a member of the divine Trinity that have a problem with Jesus being anything less than the concept of 'God' they conceive, which further frustrates other doctrinal presuppositions which rest on the full divinity of Jesus. - Students of history further know the extensive debates over Jesus nature spanning centuries where his person is dissected over and over again at the hands of theologians, straining to determine what ratio of his person was human and divine; what 'view' is 'orthodox' and what is 'heresy', that it can surely send one spinning in circles. - add ontop of that all the different heresies and their definitions, each school contending their 'point of view' as true.
That Jesus is God is a statement that begs qualification, explanation and proof, then the question of how such a conclusion is of any value and to whom.
Only honest research can yield new insight and actual answers that make sense.
It is only among those who 'assume' that Jesus must be 'God Almighty' as a member of the divine Trinity that have a problem with Jesus being anything less than the concept of 'God' they conceive, which further frustrates other doctrinal presuppositions which rest on the full divinity of Jesus.
Only honest research can yield new insight and actual answers that make sense.
pj
I'm sad PJ. I didn't know you rejected the triune God nor the divinity of the Savior. It seems contrary to other posts we've exchanged.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
I'm sad PJ. I didn't know you rejected the triune God nor the divinity of the Savior. It seems contrary to other posts we've exchanged.
Hi Lon,
I hold 'God' in all His/Her forms (and beyond form) and its not limited to only a Christian point of view, - I also accept both 'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' perspectives, and these not limited to the traditional Christian understandings or definitions, since 'God' is not limited or bound by denomination or language. God is a Universal Presence not owned by any one religious cult-ure or symbol.
I'd gather you'd know how liberal and eclectic I am as far as my theology goes as many years as I've been here....see my profile, bio, threads, posts, blogs, websites, signature links, etc.
I'm beyond these petty Unitarian/Trinitarian debates here, but dive in from time to time to elucidate issues. I've planned on sharing more on the Trinity from a Urantia Book perspective (there's only a few of us here who share from the UB, ACIM and other religous source text perspectives, just to name a few. The Bible is not the only inspired collection of books out there).
As you know, a belief or confession of the Trinity is not necessary for salvation, but a concept learned with further study or illumination. I've also never denied the divinity of Jesus (nor his humanity), neither the divinity or divine potential in Man which Jesus came to reveal and demonstrate by his own life and teaching. My perspective on Jesus draws from many facets of knowledge, legend, culture and occult philosophy.
Again,...the statement that 'Jesus is God' only means something to those who have a vested interest in such theologically. To someone unfamiliar with the notion, their ignorance affords little. The issue and history of Unitarian/Trinitarian doctrinal developments has complex layers, and complications in itself. Who can prove Jesus is God, beyond such being a religious belief? Who can further prove Jesus is also a 100% human being....somehow at the same time(compounded somehow) - and we could go on. My point is not necessarily adversarial here, but perhaps agnostic and reasonably skeptical. A dogmatist would think otherwise. Researching our beliefs, opinions and points of view is essential for growth, learning, liberation.
I'm a gnostic at heart.....since all we have as individuals is our own 'experience' ...however 'faith' and 'knowledge' fares into that. I'm also friendly of taking an agnostic position on certain things. Anyways,.....the thread-title here is an open invitation to critique such notions, AND also to show that there are different ways to interpret HOW Jesus is God, and HOW Jesus is not God.
I hold 'God' in all His/Her forms (and beyond form) and its not limited to only a Christian point of view, - I also accept both 'Unitarian' and 'Trinitarian' perspectives, and these not limited to the traditional Christian understandings or definitions, since 'God' is not limited or bound by denomination or language. God is a Universal Presence not owned by any one religious cult-ure or symbol.
paul
Jesus Himself said He was the Only Way and that it was narrow. If your theological net is so wide that you stand for little, you fall for everything.
All truth is God's truth but in order walk in the light as He is in the Light, you have to call 'wrong' what He calls wrong or you are believing a [series of] lie[s]. Jesus told the Samaritan the time was coming when true worshippers would worship in spirit and truth.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
I'm not Arian. Arians believe Jesus existed as a person prior to the incarnation. I don't believe he existed as anything more than a thought in God's mind, a Logos, in other words.
Yet the scripture says that Jesus saved the people out of Egypt,
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Jude 5 ESV
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Assumptions........ -
April 22nd, 2012, 11:55 PM
I don't believe Jesus was a god, just a flawed human being like the rest of us.
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