ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
The unfolding revelation of God about himself as reflected in the names he gave of himself were just that, an unfolding REVELATION, not a change in who he was. For example, he didn't become a healer when he revealed himself by a name that translates to God is Healer. He always had been.
So in Isaiah 44:6 when God said to Israel, "I shall be your Goel," that is, your "blood relative redeemer" God had always been related to Israel by blood? Come on! God was NOT always "Goel" to Israel. God had not always been related to Israel by blood.
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For you to say God changed his nature when he became something else to His covenant people is no different than the atheists who say our bible reveals at least two different Gods, one in the Old Testament and One in the New Testament, when in reality the testaments don't reveal a changing God but a God who deals differently with mankind at different times, ie, different covenants for different times.
"The Word BECAME flesh." The Greek "ginomai" means "to become through change."
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Accepting the idea that God changes his nature would be contrary to Jms. 1:17, among others, and imply the bible has more than one author.
You are taking James 1:17 out of context. It is saying that His moral character does not change.
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If God does change, then it would be possible for him to become unloving, unforgiving, non-omniscient, not all powerful, not able to save, etc., and we really would be in deep doo doo.
God did change so your argument fails. "The Word BECAME flesh." The word "yinomai" means "to become through change."
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I'm stickin' with the Rock of Ages, who I can count on to be the same yesterday, today, and forever.
The Rock of Ages (Christ) is faithful today, yesterday and forever. You fail to see that God is immutable when it comes to covenant keeping and moral character only.
My point still stands that there is not one scripture which says that God is immutable. In all your huff and puff you failed to produce scripture which says that God is immutable.
Absolutely!
They also miss the fact that GOD Himself calls His prophets 'gods' with His qualifying statement through His chosen mouthpieces:
JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
JN 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
so those who God gave His Words to speak are prophets/gods!!!
eg
EX 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
DEUT 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
DEUT 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
JN 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
God's mouthpieces are God's authorised agents and speak for God Himself using God's own Words ... they are gods (unto whom the Word of God came!)
Jesus even clarified the theme of Torah ... how to love God and fellow man ... that's lost on many too
Jesus said they wouldn't believe even if one was raised from the dead ... and Jesus did that too
LK 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
LK 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
TO ALL,
Glenda's post is a BIG mess!
First, God made Moses a god to pharoah and not to the people of Israel. Pharoah was a pagan who believed in 'gods' and so God made Moses a god to him. God did NOT make Moses a god to Israel. Hebrews says that Moses was a SERVANT in the Son's house, Hebrews 3:5.
Again, God made Moses a 'god' to Pharoah and not to the people of God.
Second, Glenda misconstrues Jesus' use of Psalm 82:6 because she misconstrues Psalm 82:6 itself. It was the people who called them 'gods' in the sense of deities and God was mocking in the Psalm. God was mocking them by calling them gods (deities). Jesus' argument met them on that basis.
God mockingly called them 'gods' in the sense of deities and then proved that they were not deites because they would die like mortal men.
God: So you're deities eh? You think you are sons eh? You will die like mortal men.
The term "gods" is contrasted with the term "[mortal] men" thus showing that the term "gods" by contrast means "deities" and NOT "rulers."
"The Word BECAME flesh." The Greek "ginomai" means "to become through change."
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God did change so your argument fails. "The Word BECAME flesh." The word "yinomai" means "to become through change."
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
May 1st, 2012, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Lon
Yes, I think that's probably true to a degree too, but really it is about you asserting over my area of study.
I'll take these last couple of posts as a retraction, thanks.
If you want to retract "Unless I'm an Arian, I'd never even consider the idea. Even if I were, I know enough not to toss that up there for trinitarians. There is absolutely nadda that we'd even entertain," then maybe you're not as entrenched in catholicism as you appear and I won't be wasting my time with you.
Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007
Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
May 1st, 2012, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
So in Isaiah 44:6 when God said to Israel, "I shall be your Goel," that is, your "blood relative redeemer" God had always been related to Israel by blood? Come on! God was NOT always "Goel" to Israel. God had not always been related to Israel by blood.
"The Word BECAME flesh." The Greek "ginomai" means "to become through change."
You are taking James 1:17 out of context. It is saying that His moral character does not change.
God did change so your argument fails. "The Word BECAME flesh." The word "yinomai" means "to become through change."
The Rock of Ages (Christ) is faithful today, yesterday and forever. You fail to see that God is immutable when it comes to covenant keeping and moral character only.
My point still stands that there is not one scripture which says that God is immutable. In all your huff and puff you failed to produce scripture which says that God is immutable.
If ga'al means "blood relative redeemer" then the angel in Gen. 46:18 was Jacob's blood relative. Besides meaning Kinsman Redeemer, ga'al also means to act as a Kinsman Redeemer, according to Strong.
Yes, the Logos, the Plan of God, became via change the man Christ Jesus. This obvously does not refute my contention that God is immutable.
Jms. 1:17 is a general statement, God does not change, applied to a specific situation (if you are correct in saying the context is moral character - I'm accepting your premise for the sake of discussion), which may make it appear to you that I am taking it out of context. Sorry for your confusion.
Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007
Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
May 1st, 2012, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
TO ALL,
Glenda's post is a BIG mess!
First, God made Moses a god to pharoah and not to the people of Israel. Pharoah was a pagan who believed in 'gods' and so God made Moses a god to him. God did NOT make Moses a god to Israel. Hebrews says that Moses was a SERVANT in the Son's house, Hebrews 3:5.
Again, God made Moses a 'god' to Pharoah and not to the people of God.
Second, Glenda misconstrues Jesus' use of Psalm 82:6 because she misconstrues Psalm 82:6 itself. It was the people who called them 'gods' in the sense of deities and God was mocking in the Psalm. God was mocking them by calling them gods (deities). Jesus' argument met them on that basis.
God mockingly called them 'gods' in the sense of deities and then proved that they were not deites because they would die like mortal men.
God: So you're deities eh? You think you are sons eh? You will die like mortal men.
The term "gods" is contrasted with the term "[mortal] men" thus showing that the term "gods" by contrast means "deities" and NOT "rulers."
No sir! Psalm 82:6 in New English Bible reads thus:
"This is my sentence; gods you may be, sons all of you of a high god, yet you will die like men die...."
By this reading God said, "gods you may be...." and that you may be sons of a "high god" (deity).
Here is another reading in the marginal note of my Bible:
"As judges, people may call you 'lord,' but you are as mortal as anyone else."
It was the people who called their rulers 'gods.' They thought they had become deites because of their position. God was saying it to mock the them proving that they were mere mortals. You must consider WHY God said what He said. He NEVER called any man a god except for calling His Son "the God"
"To the Son He (the Father) said, 'Thy throne the God is forever and ever....' " Hebrews 1:8
God NEVER said that Moses was a god to Israel. Never! God made Moses a 'god' to pharoah but a SERVANT in the SON'S house. Hebrews 3:1-6 Read it! Moses was a servant in the SON'S house!
If ga'al means "blood relative redeemer" then the angel in Gen. 46:18 was Jacob's blood relative. Besides meaning Kinsman Redeemer, ga'al also means to act as a Kinsman Redeemer, according to Strong.
How do you figure the angel in human form was a blood relative of Israel seeing that he was NOT born of a woman?
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
May 1st, 2012, 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
How do you figure the angel in human form was a blood relative of Israel seeing that he was NOT born of a woman?
Dude - can you follow a logical argument? YOU are the one who said God would BECOME a human based on the use of the term ga'al in Is. 44:6. I'm saying ga'al can be used for non-humans who "act as kinsmen redeemers" (according to one of Strong's definitions), but not necessarily be a human since an angel can be a ga'al according to Gen. 46:18. Get it?
Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007
Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.
Dude - can you follow a logical argument? YOU are the one who said God would BECOME a human based on the use of the term ga'al in Is. 44:6. I'm saying ga'al can be used for non-humans who "act as kinsmen redeemers" (according to one of Strong's definitions), but not necessarily be a human since an angel can be a ga'al according to Gen. 46:18. Get it?
Dude show me where angels are mentioned in Genesis 46:18. And show me how they are kinsman if they are not related by blood. Come on!
I see NOTHING in Strong's which suggests that a kinsman can be a non-human. It is stupid to say that Israel's kinsman would be a non-human or a non-Israelite.
Slogan/motto:
Luther only started the Reformation - We must finish it!
Reputation:
May 1st, 2012, 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
Dude show me where angels are mentioned in Genesis 46:18. And show me how they are kinsman if they are not related by blood. Come on!
I see NOTHING in Strong's which suggests that a kinsman can be a non-human. It is stupid to say that Israel's kinsman would be a non-human or a non-Israelite.
Well it would help if you had the right scripture (my bad). Try Gen. 48:16.
From Strong's:
Meaning: 1) to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to act as kinsman, do the part of next of kin, act as kinsman-redeemer
Atheism is a advertising nightmare as in what you see is what you get and when you die that's it. - DaveDodo007
Totally depraved doctrine.
Uncertain salvation.
Luck of the draw.
Irresistible damnation.
Persecution of the saints.
Absolutely!
They also miss the fact that GOD Himself calls His prophets 'gods' with His qualifying statement through His chosen mouthpieces:
JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
JN 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
so those who God gave His Words to speak are prophets/gods!!!
eg
EX 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
DEUT 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
DEUT 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
JN 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
God's mouthpieces are God's authorised agents and speak for God Himself using God's own Words ... they are gods (unto whom the Word of God came!)
Jesus even clarified the theme of Torah ... how to love God and fellow man ... that's lost on many too
Jesus said they wouldn't believe even if one was raised from the dead ... and Jesus did that too
LK 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
LK 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
unfortunately I don't think that is enough to persuade people here to follow Y'shua, they do not have any reverence for those whom are the mouthpiece of God and speak His word, apparently that is not qualifying enough, they want more, surely they shall receive their reward.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
May 2nd, 2012, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wile E. Coyote
No sir! Psalm 82:6 in New English Bible reads thus:
"This is my sentence; gods you may be, sons all of you of a high god, yet you will die like men die...."
By this reading God said, "gods you may be...." and that you may be sons of a "high god" (deity).
Here is another reading in the marginal note of my Bible:
"As judges, people may call you 'lord,' but you are as mortal as anyone else."
It was the people who called their rulers 'gods.' They thought they had become deites because of their position. God was saying it to mock the them proving that they were mere mortals. You must consider WHY God said what He said. He NEVER called any man a god except for calling His Son "the God"
"To the Son He (the Father) said, 'Thy throne the God is forever and ever....' " Hebrews 1:8
God NEVER said that Moses was a god to Israel. Never! God made Moses a 'god' to pharoah but a SERVANT in the SON'S house. Hebrews 3:1-6 Read it! Moses was a servant in the SON'S house!
You are not interested in what Jesus Christ stated about Psalm 82, but for the other readers sake.
John 10:34-35
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"
Unto whom did the word of God come? Moses, Jeremiah, Hosea, Paul, Peter and of course Jesus Christ....
John 8:28
Was Jesus Christ's teaching from Psalm 82 erroneous?
You are saying he was wrong.
Why don't you believe what Jesus Christ taught?
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
Well it would help if you had the right scripture (my bad). Try Gen. 48:16.
From Strong's:
Meaning: 1) to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to act as kinsman, do the part of next of kin, act as kinsman-redeemer
Sorry dude but you conclusions don't fly because this was BEFORE the law. The Levitical code which was AFTERWARDS Required that the kinsman be a blood relative.
1. The law required that a kinsman-redeemer be a blood relative
2. The law required that the relative must be able to pay the ransom.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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