[Krsto]

Originally Posted by One In Christ

Im not sure that denying the humanity is the same as denying the divinity.

And I really dont think that absolutely knowing the nature of christ, or wrongly knowing, gives you a false Jesus, or denies you salvation. - Either way, this is the Jesus of the Bible, The Son of God, Who died, was buried, and rose again... No false Jesus here

Last time I checked, that believing Jesus is God is not a requirement of salvation, anyway.

True - but you'll sure find a lot of people like choleric, godrulz, nang, amr, and other Pharisees who are more than willing to condemn a person to eternal suffering if they don't agree with their theology.

And so it goes.

[Choleric]

Originally Posted by One In Christ

Im not sure that denying the humanity is the same as denying the divinity.

Ok, let's work through that. Do you believe John was saying that those whose doctrine of CHrist was wrong, were not saved?

And I really dont think that absolutely knowing the nature of christ, or wrongly knowing, gives you a false Jesus, or denies you salvation.

well then lets talk about what John did mean. What do you think John meant? was he talking specifically about Jesus' humanity or a more encompassing doctrine of Christ?

- Either way, this is the Jesus of the Bible, The Son of God, Who died, was buried, and rose again... No false Jesus here

Jesus is who the Word of God revealed Him to be. Those that John spoke of could have believed that jesus was God's Son, who died and was buried and rose again. But John said if they denied His humanity, they were not truly saved.

Last time I checked, that believing Jesus is God is not a requirement of salvation, anyway.

Jesus said if we denied Him, He would deny us. John said if we deny who He is we are not saved. Seems like we need to do a little digging.

[meshak]

Originally Posted by Krsto

True - but you'll sure find a lot of people like choleric, godrulz, nang, amr, and other Pharisees who are more than willing to condemn a person to eternal suffering if they don't agree with their theology.

And so it goes.

Yes, they shamelessly claim that believe in the trinity is qualification for salvation. They are following RCC and John Calvin's hostile spirit.

[One In Christ]

Originally Posted by Choleric

Ok, let's work through that. Do you believe John was saying that those whose doctrine of CHrist was wrong, were not saved?



well then lets talk about what John did mean. What do you think John meant? was he talking specifically about Jesus' humanity or a more encompassing doctrine of Christ?



Jesus is who the Word of God revealed Him to be. Those that John spoke of could have believed that jesus was God's Son, who died and was buried and rose again. But John said if they denied His humanity, they were not truly saved.



Jesus said if we denied Him, He would deny us. John said if we deny who He is we are not saved. Seems like we need to do a little digging.

I just have to say, if there was irrefutable proof in the Bible that Jesus is God, there wouldn't be threads or debates like this. Its not so clear cut.

Thats how I see it... Maybe I'm missing something. I can go by the majority rule, and say "Jesus is God.... It seems to be the status quo"... Thats a reason for Christianity in general for me... It can't be wrong... otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christians, and so much proof, (through the bible and empirical evidence).

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by One In Christ

I just have to say, if there was irrefutable proof in the Bible that Jesus is God, there wouldn't be threads or debates like this. Its not so clear cut.

Thats how I see it... Maybe I'm missing something. I can go by the majority rule, and say "Jesus is God.... It seems to be the status quo"... Thats a reason for Christianity in general for me... It can't be wrong... otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christians, and so much proof, (through the bible and empirical evidence).

Good post OIC !

[Choleric]

Originally Posted by One In Christ

I just have to say, if there was irrefutable proof in the Bible that Jesus is God, there wouldn't be threads or debates like this. Its not so clear cut.

It is clear cut if you believe what you read. The main issue with those who deny the trinity is that they are always trying to tell you that a verse that seems to clearly depict Jesus as God, "is not saying what it seems to say" or they will say that a particular verse "shouldn't be in the bible".

For instance, take "let us make man in our image". Only God made man. Who is "us" and "our" if there is no trinity?

What about Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Then there is this passage in Revelation that puts the last nail in the coffin:

God the Father is the first and the last:

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.


And yet we find more about the 'first and the last' in Rev:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John heard someone speaking to him and that person said "I am Alpha and Omega"

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

The person John saw was a person with a head, and hair and was the "Son of man". If this is not enough to convince you of who this person is:

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

This person, speaking to John, then continues and calls Himself the "first and the last". This is a clear reference to God. (Is 41:4; Is 44:6)

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

To cap it all off, this person was dead and is alive evermore. He has the keys of death and hell. This person is none other than Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is alive from the dead, He is the first and the last. He is God.

Thats how I see it... Maybe I'm missing something. I can go by the majority rule, and say "Jesus is God.... It seems to be the status quo"... Thats a reason for Christianity in general for me... It can't be wrong... otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christians, and so much proof, (through the bible and empirical evidence).

Don't ever go with "majority rule". But also don't fall prey to those who try to "explain away" verses that need no explaining. And also, don't fall prey to the idea that since you and I can't understand how God could be three in one, then it can't be true. God is bigger than anything we can imagine or understand and we are told "lean not on your own understanding"

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by Choleric

Don't ever go with "majority rule". But also don't fall prey to those who try to "explain away" verses that need no explaining. And also, don't fall prey to the idea that since you and I can't understand how God could be three in one, then it can't be true. God is bigger than anything we can imagine or understand and we are told "lean no on your own understanding"

Exactly!

[Eeset]

Originally Posted by Krsto

True - but you'll sure find a lot of people like choleric, godrulz, nang, amr, and other Pharisees who are more than willing to condemn a person to eternal suffering if they don't agree with their theology.

And so it goes.

I enjoy reading your posts Krsto.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by Krsto

Buzz? I'm Krsto. Buzz would be offended. Put your glasses back on. Or get more sleep.

You, Lon, "get around it" by saying it wasn't Jesus who was tempted but his body. Problem is, you can't tempt a body. You can only tempt a person. It was the person of Jesus who was tempted, not the body of Jesus. This should be so obvious a six your old could grasp this but your goofy trinitarian theology has led you down this path and you can't get yourself out without admitting you have been wrong all these years.

I was thinking "Ank!" or "Honk!" but used "Buzz!"

You still seem to not understand. If I am God --> no temptation.
When/if I receive a body, it desires things that I , without a body, do not.

Why it isn't not making sense to you would what? Make me wonder if you are 6 yet? I don't get it (work a little harder). Until then, let's just assume for a second that you might not have been as correct in your initial assessment as you might have hoped...

[keypurr]

Originally Posted by One In Christ

I just have to say, if there was irrefutable proof in the Bible that Jesus is God, there wouldn't be threads or debates like this. Its not so clear cut.

Thats how I see it... Maybe I'm missing something. I can go by the majority rule, and say "Jesus is God.... It seems to be the status quo"... Thats a reason for Christianity in general for me... It can't be wrong... otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christians, and so much proof, (through the bible and empirical evidence).

Keep thinking for yourself my friend. My hat is off to you.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by Krsto

True - but you'll sure find a lot of people like choleric, godrulz, nang, amr, and other Pharisees who are more than willing to condemn a person to eternal suffering if they don't agree with their theology.

And so it goes.

My jury is still out. There are verses of scripture appearing denied to me.

God alone is judge but I find it difficult to imagine one paying lip-service to a creation like himself/herself is as reverent or can be as reverent as one who believes Jesus is God▼
Turning the tables a bit, if you come to somebody worshipping who he/she believes is God, then try and dethrone Him before their eyes, what would you expect? It kind of makes sense no? Press it even further than that, we see a bit of an audacity on many many levels but the huge ones for me:

Non-trinitarians who approach trinitarian boards
1) Challenge the status-quo (are thus in the minority)
2) Because they are minority, are seen as precociously audacious interlopers
3) Tend not to have the theological degrees many of the rest of us have persued (prematurely presumptuous without sacrifice or sincerity)
4) Tend to wade in with their fists leading (already have a chip on their shoulder from every prior discussion/encounter/ostracization - offensive)
5) Have associations with cults, if not in affiliation, in retrospect (guilty by association)

Summary: Non-trinitarians are seen as minority view, ill-equipped, trouble-makers who disturb our boards for their own agenda bringing to mind offensive cults and often (nearly always) with troublesome attitudes
and devisive dispositions.

I suppose it is danged if I do/danged if I don't for you. I don't see how you can get around that. If you choose an ostracized group to believe with, you can and should expect to be treated as that particular group?

Not only that, but I remember the arian pow-wow two years ago on here where we were declared hell-bound. I do remember you taking a better stance, but it hasn't helped arians or modalists particularly on this forum.

[Pierac]

Originally Posted by Choleric

It is clear cut if you believe what you read. The main issue with those who deny the trinity is that they are always trying to tell you that a verse that seems to clearly depict Jesus as God, "is not saying what it seems to say" or they will say that a particular verse "shouldn't be in the bible".

For instance, take "let us make man in our image". Only God made man. Who is "us" and "our" if there is no trinity?

Originally Posted by Pierac

In my last post I discussed the issue of Christ as the “Head of the New Creation” In that post, I discussed who created Man and all Creation. Many times I get asked about the “Us” in Genesis 1:26. Here is my research into this verse at hand.

US?

When God says "let us make man in our image" some say we are being taught that the Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are together creating human beings? How is it that when some read this statement their minds immediately think of "let us three"? The verse says nothing about God speaking to the Son or to the Holy Spirit. It simply says that God addressed someone else or some others than Himself. The "us" could refer to just one other, or to many others. But who is this someone or who are these others to whom God speaks here?

The Hebrews understood that God addressed His heavenly court, the angelic host and that He allowed them to watch his master-work in creating mankind unfold. This is quite reasonable, for there are other times when God involves the angels in His work.

In Isaiah 6, God is seen in His Heavenly temple with the cherubs and all the heavenly court. There God asks, "Whom shall I send, and whom will go for us?" (v.8). It is certainly the case in 1 Kings 22:19-20 where the Lord is seen "sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left" and he asked the heavenly court '"who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?' And one said this while the other said that."

Let's return to Genesis 1:26. It is reasonable to suggest then that God in some way took the angels into confidence with Himself when he created Adam? This is collaborated in Job 38:4, 7 where God says that when He laid the foundations of the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy." The sons of God are of course the angels as Job 1:6 and 2:1 confirm. God's own testimony is that the work of creation, "the heavens," "the earth" and "all things" were His work alone. This fact is established right away at the very outset of Genesis 1 where we are first introduced to God (elohim) the Creator. It is also clear that when he came to create Adam and Eve he told the angels to watch in awe. In this way the heavenly hosts participated as spectators of the miracle of man's creation.

Now if you're still not convinced that the God of creation is one God and not three in one, let’s review our Lord Jesus own commentary on Genesis 1:26. We shall let Him settle this issue for us.
In Matthew 19:4 and Mark 13:19 Jesus tells us

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (the Father) created until now, and never will be.

According to Jesus himself the creator God was not "We who made them from the beginning" but a single person He! Jesus does not include himself in the Genesis 1 creation of Adam, and He is also telling us that God (His and our Father) Created all from the beginning.

Paul

Your welcome Choleric! I'm always happy to educate you out of the ignorance of the traditions of men you quoted above! FYI, save your labeling... Show me how your traditions of men were not just spanked in public...! Use Scripture like I did! You really should read the bible before posting the stuff like... "Who is "us" and "our" if there is no trinity?"

Paul

[Pierac]

Originally Posted by Lon

My jury is still out. There are verses of scripture appearing denied to me.

God alone is judge but I find it difficult to imagine one paying lip-service to a creation like himself/herself is as reverent or can be as reverent as one who believes Jesus is God▼
Turning the tables a bit, if you come to somebody worshipping who he/she believes is God, then try and dethrone Him before their eyes, what would you expect? It kind of makes sense no? Press it even further than that, we see a bit of an audacity on many many levels but the huge ones for me:

Non-trinitarians who approach trinitarian boards
1) Challenge the status-quo (are thus in the minority)
2) Because they are minority, are seen as precociously audacious interlopers
3) Tend not to have the theological degrees many of the rest of us have persued (prematurely presumptuous without sacrifice or sincerity)
4) Tend to wade in with their fists leading (already have a chip on their shoulder from every prior discussion/encounter/ostracization - offensive)
5) Have associations with cults, if not in affiliation, in retrospect (guilty by association)

Summary: Non-trinitarians are seen as minority view, ill-equipped, trouble-makers who disturb our boards for their own agenda bringing to mind offensive cults and often (nearly always) with troublesome attitudes and devisive dispositions.

I suppose it is danged if I do/danged if I don't for you. I don't see how you can get around that. If you choose an ostracized group to believe with, you can and should expect to be treated as that particular group?

Not only that, but I remember the arian pow-wow two years ago on here where we were declared hell-bound. I do remember you taking a better stance, but it hasn't helped arians or modalists particularly on this forum.

You focus too much on being in the majority! Focus on the truth! You are using your opinions to make being in minority a bad thing! Unlike you I can actually use scripture to make the majority look bad! BTW... Jesus Challenged the status-quo

Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (The minority)!

Luk 13:23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many (Majority), I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Still sticking with the Majority Lon? Keep sticking with your many Corporation style Church's and traditions of men... and you might find yourself in the minority in the end?

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few (minority again!) are chosen."

At least I used scripture... you use opinions and pride yourself in your Majority status!

Oh, yea... You won't burn in hell either!

Paul

[Choleric]

Originally Posted by Pierac

Your welcome Choleric! I'm always happy to educate you out of the ignorance of the traditions of men you quoted above! FYI, save your labeling... Show me how your traditions of men were not just spanked in public...! Use Scripture like I did! You really should read the bible before posting the stuff like... "Who is "us" and "our" if there is no trinity?"

Paul

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. How in the world did the angels make or create man? It is let "us" make. In the passage the person speaking and those being spoken to all participated in the making. It is not, "watch 'me' make". Either show from scripture where angels created man or find another alternative, or just believe the bible.

[Lon]

Originally Posted by Pierac

You focus too much on being in the majority! Focus on the truth! You are using your opinions to make being in minority a bad thing! Unlike you I can actually use scripture to make the majority look bad! BTW... Jesus Challenged the status-quo

Yeah, but you can't even read the languages. Who'd I listen to, you?
We all gotta listen to somebody, but we cannot be smart about it?
We are supposed to follow the childish and child-minded, not anybody that can read the languages or has endeavored to actually know what he/she is talking about?

Originally Posted by Pierac

Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (The minority)!

Forget about morality though, right? Why this inane excuse is your tack doesn't leave me a lot of high assessment for you, Paul. It is frankly, anti-about-everything I know of including intellectual. This kind of reasoning is about the worst kind of brain-washing rubbish I've come across and it annoys me. You might as well have said "Hey! Let's jump into the lobotomy pool!" Just for the gas (fun of it)!

Originally Posted by Pierac

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many (Majority), I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

What makes you think you are one of the few? If it is that few, I'd think we are all in serious trouble, including you. Don't for a second, imagine 'this' is the straw that breaks the camels back. A little 'too' convenient wouldn't you say?

Jer 29:12 Then you shall call on Me, and you shall go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.
Jer 29:13 And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Originally Posted by Pierac

Still sticking with the Majority Lon? Keep sticking with your many Corporation style Church's and traditions of men... and you might find yourself in the minority in the end?

Originally Posted by Pierac

yourself. You type too much before you think. It is why I don't read much from you. You just spit stuff out without thinking before you do so.
The majority on the planet do not feel guilty either, Paul. They say filthy things and tell crude jokes, and have no desire to glorify our Savior or call Him Lord. That'd be the majority I tend to think about. There are way more people calling themselves Christians than actually living that lifestyle. We read majority and minority quite a bit differently from each other.

Originally Posted by Pierac

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few (minority again!) are chosen."

At least I used scripture... you use opinions and pride yourself in your Majority status!

Oh, yea... You won't burn in hell either!

Paul

So you get to say filthy things, not feel the slightest moral guilt for it, and go on the straight path? What is wrong with this picture? Scripture is great when it comes into the conversation and is appropriate for it. A whole list of pointless scripture posting doesn't impress me. Anybody can do it.