ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
"Fate Rarely Calls Upon Us at a Moment of Our Choosing"
Reputation:
A "Fall From Grace" -
April 11th, 2012, 11:00 AM
I wish to use this thread as a platform to broadcast the testimory of my recent change of perspective and loss of faith in the Bible as God's inspired Word.
I would love to be re-pursuaded to once again embrace the Faith as my attempts to do so are failing miserably, maybe someone here can provide me with something I am lacking.
Slogan/motto:
"Fate Rarely Calls Upon Us at a Moment of Our Choosing"
Reputation:
Here's My Story -
April 11th, 2012, 11:01 AM
I basically grew up and was a believer for as long as I can remember. I didn't have that 'turning from sin' conversion story because for the entirety of my life, I had basically abhorred sin and tried to practice what I believed to be righteous living. Perhaps because that is my sorry, unlike many believers I became someone that "majored in minors" and tried to be very analytical and "doctrinally sound" from a young age. I always yearned for a deeper knowledge and understanding and felt that I should be able to back up my beliefs with solid reasonable arguments and proof that I was correct. For years the status quo that I had went unchallenged, (at least in my mind) as I felt I could and had always "defended the faith" well and proved my points when discussing issues of faith with those that had opposing beliefs (many who believe today likely feel this way as well I'm sure).
Things started changing as I found that many that disbelieved the scriptures also analyzed them and were able to break them down in an unbiased way not reflecting the preconceptions of their particular brand of faith. That challenged me to do the same and surprisingly I came to many of the same conclusions that they had. I went from a very fundamental view of heaven/hell, the soul/spirit, and premillennialism to a view of Heaven/Hell and the soul that was more in line with 7th Day Adventists and JW's than my own denomination. After that and more intense study, I found that my understanding of the scriptures was more in line with what partial preterists believed than what was being taught at most churches I knew of.
So over the course of a 3 or 4 year period I went from a "Hell, fire, and brimstone" advocate to somewhat of a Partial Preterist that believed, unlike most Preterists that a literal return of Jesus and resurrection of the saints had taken place way back in the late 1st century and that man was a living soul that died completely at death as opposed to man having a living soul that lives on beyond the grave.
In the midst of all of that, I was still a stance Bible believing Christian advancing the sola-scriptura mantra for all to see and hear. I had become subconsciously skilled at rationalizing the irrational in order to mask some of the issues that many found problematic with the scriptures. My tipping point was when I finally realized that the Bible in fact did have some real issues and errors that could not be rectified without having to change or ignore many scriptures. Such issues include Luke's account of Stephen's speech in Acts 7 where Stephen, a man filled with and speaking through God's Holy Spirit errantly discussed various Old Testament stories. In addition there is also the big issue of Jesus not fulfilling many of the Messianic prophecies mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures and having NT writers depict things as Messianic that had no Messianic connotations in the Hebrew Scriptures. Also, there was the issue of Jesus apparantly (I say apparantly due to there being no historic documentation of such a major human event) NOT returning in the 1st century as was proclaimed by him and his disciples. Finally, and this may seem like a small issue to some, but the issue of when Jesus was born and the contradictory records of Luke and Matthew as it pertains to this really caused me concern. Luke has Jesus being born when Quirainous (sp ?) was governor of Syria and during the time of a census, which if correct would have had to occur at or around the year 6 CE. Matthew has Jesus being born during the life and reign of Herod the Great who happened to die in the year 4 bc. These accounts are irreconcilable and force one to conclude that either Matthew or Luke's account is wrong, or both are wrong.
If we must pick and choose what is right, how can we know what if anything in scripture is right? Because of this I could no longer honestly affirm that the scriptures inerrant or divinely inspired, and I had to come to grips with the idea that my entire faith was based on believe in 2000 year old writings of men that were not writing God-given and inspired words, but rather writers that wrote from the point of view of their beliefs, prejudices, opinions, and limited knowledge. In view of the apparent inconsistencies of the scriptures, it TOTALLY has shaken my faith and caused me to be doubtful of any hope that I had acquired through faith in the scriptures. If the scriptures cannot be trusted, then what reason is there to believe that they are correct about Jesus, eternal life, etc.?
I do not believe that Jesus is God manifest anymore for reasons listed above as well as various other reasons. Paramount among them is because many passages of scripture speak out against such even being a possibility. For the most part in the scripture's depiction of Jesus it shows readers that Jesus was God's Anointed huMAN as opposed to a GodMAN. I used to believe and still at times WANT TO believe that Jesus' resurrection happened and made it possible that I too will one day be raised to a life without end under the peaceful reign of Jesus and his Bride within the all-encompassing universal Kingdom of Heaven. But my want to, the evidence, and the facts do not equate; so I must face the realistic possibility/probability that no such hope exists. And as time passes, I have learned to better cope with what I feel is a sad reality.
I treasured my faith, I lived by my faith, and I defended my faith to the nth degree until it became clear that my faith was baseless, not founded upon reality, and would provide me with nothing more than a hope of a future that is not guaranteed, verifiable, and perhaps not even realistic. In the end what has been lost is the hope and expectation I once carried inside my heart. Regaining that hope has no bearing on the reality of anything, so as Paul said, "I count everything but loss" for the cause of knowing truth.
Slogan/motto:
"Fate Rarely Calls Upon Us at a Moment of Our Choosing"
Reputation:
April 11th, 2012, 11:03 AM
At this point, I am persuaded that the creator is SOMETHING(s) which is impossible (at this point) to identify, describe, or explain. It, whatever it may be acted, or was acted upon (by something yet to be identified as well), causing the onset of the universe. That SOMETHING in cannot yet be identified and any attempts at doing so are nothing more than purely speculative tall tales. So even saying that the SOMETHING I am equating with our creator made a purposeful decision is at best wishful thinking and cannot be proven. To me, a better guess, but still a guess nonetheless would be to say that the SOMETHING that gave rise to our cosmos was somehow capable of causing "creation". To me, that is all we can honestly speculate on based on the evidence we have at our disposal. Even saying that, we must admit that we have no way of knowing whether the capable party acted purposefully or whether our cosmos arose accidentally as an effect of its actions. The speculation is infinite and the definitive answers are lacking.
Slogan/motto:
"Fate Rarely Calls Upon Us at a Moment of Our Choosing"
Reputation:
April 11th, 2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremysdemo
what is your definition of Christian?
and why would you define yourself as such if you do not believe the Bible is inspired by God?
the reason I ask is much of the Christian faith is contingent on that.
keep shinin
jerm
I once believed it hook, line, and sinker. Here's how I explained it in another thread:
Quote:
I was first told of, then read the good message of Anointed Jesus in the gospels for myself. Subsequently, I believed what I read and fully believed in my heary that Jesus of Nazareth was God's Anoited One and also God's only generated/begotten Son. After coming to this belief, I confessed it publically after resolving in my heart to do my best to live in accordance to my perceived view (based on the scriptures, prayers, etc.) of the will of God. Immediately following all of that I was baptized for the remission of my sins and subsequently rose from that "watery grave" to walk in "knewness of life." It was a new life I lived for decades striving to be Christlike, which of course is what the term Christian truly means.
That my friend, is why I identified myself as a Christian.
At this point, what I believe to be true has changed.
In view of the apparent inconsistencies of the scriptures, it TOTALLY has shaken my faith and caused me to be doubtful of any hope that I had acquired through faith in the scriptures. If the scriptures cannot be trusted, then what reason is there to believe that they are correct about Jesus, eternal life, etc.?
Slogan/motto:
Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test.
Reputation:
April 11th, 2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throwback
I wish to use this thread as a platform to broadcast the testimory of my recent change of perspective and loss of faith in the Bible as God's inspired Word.
I would love to be re-pursuaded to once again embrace the Faith as my attempts to do so are failing miserably, maybe someone here can provide me with something I am lacking.
A thought: When one first experiences the indwelling Holy Ghost, it is a mountaintop experience comparable to no other.
You are then armed for the work which God has planned for you.
This means, one must come down from the mountaintop and begin to make a difference in this life.
Sometimes the view becomes hazy, then, one must seek renewal via prayer, meditation or dialogue with a mentor.
The moments of "at-one-ment" still occur. They are gifts.
Slogan/motto:
"Fate Rarely Calls Upon Us at a Moment of Our Choosing"
Reputation:
April 11th, 2012, 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bybee
A thought: When one first experiences the indwelling Holy Ghost, it is a mountaintop experience comparable to no other.
You are then armed for the work which God has planned for you.
This means, one must come down from the mountaintop and begin to make a difference in this life.
Sometimes the view becomes hazy, then, one must seek renewal via prayer, meditation or dialogue with a mentor.
The moments of "at-one-ment" still occur. They are gifts.
In retrospect, I find those wonderous moments to be but a high orchestrated by my mind as within my depths, I was convinced that everything that meant anything was in Christ and that there was no bliss like that of being in communion with the Spirit of God!
In other words, I was projecting. I can now see that what I though was occuring may in fact have not occurred.
That's the very question I asked the Lord over and over in prayer.
Funny that I never got an answer.............
little ironic don't cha think?
IF the Holy Spirit is/was with you than according to scripture it will lead to to all truth and bring to remembrance everything Jesus has said, if not than nothing happens.
If the first, that would mean He is even guiding you away from your previous beliefs or at least in a direction to examine them, working with you to build a strong foundation of Torah, the second again, nothing will happen as you abandon your traditions other than you will have a few less holidays on your calendar.
let me ask you if you don't mind, are you doubting Gods ability to shepherd you?
Slogan/motto:
"Fate Rarely Calls Upon Us at a Moment of Our Choosing"
Reputation:
April 11th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremysdemo
little ironic don't cha think?
IF the Holy Spirit is/was with you than according to scripture it will lead to to all truth and bring to remembrance everything Jesus has said, if not than nothing happens.
If the first, that would mean He is even guiding you away from your previous beliefs, working with you to build a strong foundation of Torah, the second again, nothing will happen as you abandon your traditions other than you will have a few less holidays on your calendar.
keep shinin
jerm
BUT, what if it turns out that the scriptures are not reliable sources of truth? What does that say about our understanding of God's Holy Spirit other than it is purely subjective and possibly but a figment of the imaginations of some individuals and religious sects?
BUT, what if it turns out that the scriptures are not reliable sources of truth?
then you press on, you ask, seek, knock, it ain't just handed to you on a silver platter.
God did promise to preserve His Word forever, and a remnant of His people as well, however He didn't say it was going to be in the form of an English book.....
it can be living Word too, meaning it is alive in people and passed on from generation to generation that way as well, in one passage of the Bible a single person (Ezra if memory is correct) recited the entire Torah at that point from memory when no complete written record could be found.
you can just forget that what if, the entire Bible has been found to be unreliable or at least to differ when compared to other more ancient manuscripts, but that's the beauty of the landscape bro, seeking and growing in knowledge, comparing text and delving into the culture and idioms of the periods, would be rather boring if we lived in a day and age when everything was scripted and not to be questioned long ago.....IMHO.
Slogan/motto:
Try to be civil in the face of incivility. This is a test.
Reputation:
April 11th, 2012, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Throwback
In retrospect, I find those wonderous moments to be but a high orchestrated by my mind as within my depths, I was convinced that everything that meant anything was in Christ and that there was no bliss like that of being in communion with the Spirit of God!
In other words, I was projecting. I can now see that what I though was occuring may in fact have not occurred.
April 11th, 2012, 01:13 PM
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