[themuzicman]

I was told that Bob Enyart believes (as an open theist) that God chooses not to know the future, and that makes him and open theist.

So, I'm curious... Does that mean the future is knowable as a certain future, and God simply chooses not to know it?

[Nang]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

I was told that Bob Enyart believes (as an open theist) that God chooses not to know the future, and that makes him and open theist.

So, I'm curious... Does that mean the future is knowable as a certain future, and God simply chooses not to know it?

Heh . . .

[Delmar]

God chooses to allow freedom.

[Nang]

Originally Posted by Delmar

God chooses to allow freedom.

The description and definition of sovereign "freedom" is "OMNISCIENCE."

Omniscience does not succumb to human "freedom," nor is it ever limited or changed by the parameters or results of human choices . . .

but rather, divine omniscience decreed, designed, created, and allowed human freedom to act in accordance to fulfill His own sovereign will!

Bottom line: Whose WILL comes first? God's will or mans' will?

Is there any foolish enough person here on TOL, willing to publically state his opinion, that man's will comes before and thereby overrules the will of God?

Nang

[sky.]

Open theism usurps God... the end.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

So, I'm curious... Does that mean the future is knowable as a certain future, and God simply chooses not to know it?

The future does not exist, so there is no way for God to know what will happen.
God can state with certainty what will happen in the future based on His knowledge of His ability to make the events happen when the time is right, unless He decides to change His mind beforehand.
God can also state with high probability what will happen in the future based on projection of the trajectories of current movements.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Nang

Is there any foolish enough person here on TOL, willing to publically state his opinion, that man's will comes before and thereby overrules the will of God?

That must be a Calvinist belief, like TULIP.
No Open Theist believes that kind of Calvinistic nonsense.

[Nang]

Originally Posted by genuineoriginal

The future does not exist, so there is no way for God to know what will happen.
God can state with certainty what will happen in the future based on His knowledge of His ability to make the events happen when the time is right, unless He decides to change His mind beforehand.
God can also state with high probability what will happen in the future based on projection of the trajectories of current movements.

So you are saying God does not know what He is doing? Or that He does not know what He might choose to do next?

How insulting an opinion of your Maker, who holds the entire Universe in His hands!

Nang

[Knight]

Originally Posted by themuzicman

I was told that Bob Enyart believes (as an open theist) that God chooses not to know the future, and that makes him and open theist.

So, I'm curious... Does that mean the future is knowable as a certain future, and God simply chooses not to know it?

The future does not exist and God gave men a will of their own therefore God does not know the future. However, God could have chosen to NOT give us a will and manipulated every molecule for all of time thereby creating a different type of reality in where God knew every detail of the future - after all, He is God, He could have done it that way had he chose to.

Thankfully He didn't.

Yet, since He could have theoretically created that way you could rightfully state God chooses to not know the future.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Nang

How insulting an opinion of your Maker, who holds the entire Universe in His hands!

I am not the one insulting Him and His power.

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Knight

The future does not exist and God gave men a will of their own therefore God does not know the future. However, God could have chosen to NOT give us a will and manipulated every molecule for all of time thereby creating a different type of reality in where God knew every detail of the future - after all, He is God, He could have done it that way had he chose to.

Thankfully He didn't.

Yet, since He could have theoretically created that way you could rightfully state God chooses to not know the future.

Good points.

[Knight]

Originally Posted by Nang

So you are saying God does not know what He is doing? Or that He does not know what He might choose to do next?

Nang I don't want to argue with you, really I don't.

I have a question I would love for you to answer.

I know you are a Calvinist so I know what you believe, so this question for you is theoretical and I hope you will be able to understand I'm not trying to trap or trick you. This is an honest question that I would love to get your answer on.

QUESTION: In your opinion... COULD God have created in a such a way to purposely NOT know what His creation would do in every detail? Could He have given us a will of our own but chose not to? Or was that something that he couldn't do and if so, why not?

Let me say this... I believe that God COULD have created in such a way that we wouldn't have had a will of our own but He chose NOT to create that way.

In other words... I believe God had/has the power to control our actions and therefore create a settled future i.e., Calvinism. But based on what I believe the Bible teaches us is that isn't the case (but only because God chose not to do it that way).

I'm curious if you believe likewise. I.e., that God could have left the future open but chose not to. Or do you believe that wasn't something God could have done.

I hope my question makes enough sense for you to answer. If it doesn't make sense I apologize in advance.

[Knight]

themuzicman, I hope you might read my above question to Nang as I think those questions really get to the heart of this issue.

[sky.]

Originally Posted by Nang

So you are saying God does not know what He is doing? Or that He does not know what He might choose to do next?

How insulting an opinion of your Maker, who holds the entire Universe in His hands!

Nang

It's called sedition. People like to claim that they know God's Sovereign will. It is as if to say that they know "the mind of God".

We can know the righteous attributes of God by the Scriptures but for anyone to say that they know His Sovereign will outside of what will be revealed or what has been revealed by Scripture or that Scripture isn't His final will and will be revealed as the Scriptures say is blasphemy.

Open theism is like claiming that the Bible isn't the inspired and adherent Word of God.

[Nang]

Originally Posted by Knight

QUESTION: In your opinion... COULD God have created in a such a way to purposely NOT know what His creation would do in every detail?

No.

Such a consideration would deny the omnipotence and sovereignty of God.

Could He have given us a will of our own but chose not to? Or was that something that he couldn't do and if so, why not?

God did create man and God did give man a will. Man is a volitional creature, who morally is subjected to submit his will to the sovereign will of God. Jesus Christ exemplified that the human will can work in perfect harmony and submission to the sovereign will of the Father, did He not?

Jesus Christ possessed a free and righteous human will . . . and the Father knew exactly how His Son would exercise His will, in obedience even unto death, did He not?

Let me say this... I believe that God COULD have created in such a way that we wouldn't have had a will of our own but He chose NOT to create that way.

I disagree. God created Adam (and all of mankind) to be willful creatures. Men are not machines or robots, are they? (Funny, this Calvinist is taking the side of man having volition, but that is what this Calvinist believes.)

In other words... I believe God had/has the power to control our actions and therefore create a settled future i.e., Calvinism.

Indeed.

But based on what I believe the Bible teaches us is that isn't the case (but only because God chose not to do it that way).

So, you believe the bible teaches that God has no control over the actions of men, and that is the reason He cannot know the future? Where do you read that? And where do you read God chose not to be in control of all things or subject Himself to ignorance?

I'm curious if you believe likewise. I.e., that God could have left the future open but chose not to. Or do you believe that wasn't something God could have done.

I hope my question makes enough sense for you to answer. If it doesn't make sense I apologize in advance.

I believe God is sovereign over all things, and therefore the outcome of all things are certain, according to God's eternal decrees, divine will, and good purposes. The human will, granted to men, cannot ever thwart the eternal purposes and plans of Sovereign God.

In my opinion, the theory that God leaves the future open, and unknowable even to Himself, is nothing more than a denial of the scriptural definitions and declarations of His Holy attributes, all.

But thanks for asking . . . and asking so nicely!

Nang