ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Dear NickM,
The message of the gospel provoked the Jews long before Paul ever went back to Jerusalem for Pentecost as recorded in Acts 21 and on.
The Jews started persecuting the gospel believers with Jesus who, Himself, healed on the Sabbath, and did not rebuke His disciples when they plucked grain on the Sabbathor ate with unwashen hands.
They killed Stephen and James, and they tried to kill Peter.
In short, the gospel NEVER had much in common with Judaism- and the Jews knew it.
See Lk 20:9-19.
Jesus Christ showed His disciples how to follow God as a dear child.
Jesus Christ sent His disciples to teach the nations how to follow God as dear children.
Following God as a dear child will teach you all the theology you need.
Dear NickM,
The message of the gospel provoked the Jews long before Paul ever went back to Jerusalem for Pentecost as recorded in Acts 21 and on.
The Jews started persecuting the gospel believers with Jesus who, Himself, healed on the Sabbath, and did not rebuke His disciples when they plucked grain on the Sabbathor ate with unwashen hands.
They killed Stephen and James, and they tried to kill Peter. In short, the gospel NEVER had much in common with Judaism- and the Jews knew it.
See Lk 20:9-19.
You obviously do not know the scriptures if you believe that.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel4Truth
Lets look at the rest:
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Tongues a Sign to Unbelievers
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers
Tongues were a sign for unbelievers, in the early church to spread the gospel to those who spoke other languages so it could be heard and understood in ones own language.
Not needed today with bible versions in many languages.
So whats holding me back? nothing, i speak english and those i witness to, speak english, they understand my 'tongue'.
What am i going to about it? God already gave His word and I use it to reach other english speaking people.
Non believers who speak english can understand me in their own tongue already.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19[b] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Angel for truth,
Note the words "in the church"
Why does he specify in the church?
Keep reading the verse.
Most of the time speaking in tongues is not understood by others in the meeting of the church, unless by some miracle the tongue spoken is understood by a foreigner present or someone who understands the language spoken.
The idea that speaking in tongues is for preaching is not based on all the evidence.
The companion manifestation to speaking in tongues in the church is interpretation of tongues.
Two words are translated unbelievers.
One means "knows enough to believe but refuses to"
the other word for unbeliever is apistia, which means does not know enough yet to believe.
It is apistia that is referred to as being a sign to.,
It is a sign for those who are not aware that there is more than praying with the understanding only. Believers, who are instructed in the manifestation of speaking in tongues can pray with the spirit as well, which is speaking in tongues.
I Corinthians 14:14-16
oatmeaal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19[b] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Angel for truth,
Note the words "in the church"
Why does he specify in the church?
Keep reading the verse.
Most of the time speaking in tongues is not understood by others in the meeting of the church, unless by some miracle the tongue spoken is understood by a foreigner present or someone who understands the language spoken.
The idea that speaking in tongues is for preaching is not based on all the evidence.
The companion manifestation to speaking in tongues in the church is interpretation of tongues.
Two words are translated unbelievers.
One means "knows enough to believe but refuses to"
the other word for unbeliever is apistia, which means does not know enough yet to believe.
It is apistia that is referred to as being a sign to.,
It is a sign for those who are not aware that there is more than praying with the understanding only. Believers, who are instructed in the manifestation of speaking in tongues can pray with the spirit as well, which is speaking in tongues.
I Corinthians 14:14-16
oatmeaal
Define the church please. Me thinks you do not know what it is.
oh and oatmeal? You are who quoted the verse about the church also, which i finished since you quoted it out of context.
your post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
I Corinthians 14:5
"I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."
Mark 16:17
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"
I Corinthians 14:18
"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
Tongues a Sign to Unbelievers
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21 In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.
22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers
Tongues were a sign for unbelievers, in the early church to spread the gospel to those who spoke other languages so it could be heard and understood in ones own language.
Not needed today with bible versions in many languages.
So whats holding me back? nothing, i speak english and those i witness to, speak english, they understand my 'tongue'.
What am i going to about it? God already gave His word and I use it to reach other english speaking people.
Non believers who speak english can understand me in their own tongue already.
You also didnt respond to any of the red portion oatmeal.
Slogan/motto:
II Timothy 2:15, Psalms 6:5, I John 3:1-2, Romans 5:1 I John 4:18, I Timothy 2:4-5, II Corinthians 9:8,11, III John 2
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
hekastos which means: men, woman, ones
I'm not quite following. Observations? Something you are sharing about the text and your observations? Just musings that will be put together a bit later? Sorry, I'm not meaning to miss it.
I Corinthians 12:7-8
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
One is a pronoun.
What is the closest antecedent noun to "one"?
We have several nouns in verse 7
we have
manifestation
spirit
man
profit
which is the closest noun?
You might also consider that in verse 7
What is it that is given to every man to profit withal?
What does the verse say is given?
a. one gift
b. the manifestation of the spirit
The list in I Corinthians 12:8-10 is not a list of gifts, it is a list of the manifestations of the spirit.
Those who have received the gift of holy spirit I John 4:13
can now manifest the spirit.
Think about that.
oatmeal
"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Psalm 6:5
Slogan/motto:
"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."-1 Cor. 10:31 KJV
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
so Mark 16:17 is not the words of Jesus Christ to those who believe?
So you are suggesting that believers don't exist anymore?
oatmeal
You missed it, king of sophistry. You initially "argued:"
"So then knowledge has vanished away as well?"-mind of mush
Then you changed it to "word of knowledge:"
"Word of knowledge is profitable for the knowledge received."-mind of mush
Go on record and argue that the word "knowledge" below....
1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
...is referring to...
knowl·edge noun \ˈnä-lij\
Definition of KNOWLEDGE
1obsolete : cognizance
2a (1) : the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association (2) : acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique b (1) : the fact or condition of being aware of something (2) : the range of one's information or understanding <answered to the best of my knowledge> c : the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning : cognition d : the fact or condition of having information or of being learned <a person of unusual knowledge>
....and not "the word of knowledge," as in:
1 Corinthians 12:8 KJV
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Sophistry from oatmush, to all to view.
No, the term "knowledge" in 1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV is referring to the same "word of knowledge" in 1 Corinthians 12:8 KJV, and you know it, and we know it, so your...
Slogan/motto:
"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."-1 Cor. 10:31 KJV
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal
so Mark 16:17 is not the words of Jesus Christ to those who believe?
So you are suggesting that believers don't exist anymore?
oatmeal
Mark 16
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;"
One is a pronoun.
What is the closest antecedent noun to "one"?
which is the closest noun?
oatmeal
It is the same in English and Greek here. You don't need me to find that. It is readily there: Body, individual, each man and woman, etc.
By the context, it is the believer in the Body.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Dear JohnW,
Knowledge just means knowledge. In the perfect age, knowledge that you need today, stops being knowledge.
Quote:
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
For one thing, the knowledge of war will pass away when that which is perfect has come.
Quote:
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
In the perfect age, what you know about predation will pass away. In fact, perfect love will have replaced all fear as...
Quote:
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Jesus Christ showed His disciples how to follow God as a dear child.
Jesus Christ sent His disciples to teach the nations how to follow God as dear children.
Following God as a dear child will teach you all the theology you need.
Many report healings among churches, healing ministries, and those who believe in the power of prayer. Testimonies abound. The power of prayer (the effect of faith, consciousness, intent, meditation, oneness with God) has an effect on one's being (spirit, soul and body), - such things are even being scientifically confirmed and studied.
Laying on of hands is practiced by other cultures/religious traditions and schools: theraputic touch, Reiki, polarity, energy work - these may require a 'skill set' or is an art/science that is "learned"....but a psychic/spiritual ability or 'gifting' may also be involved.
There is actually energy-transfer and effects of healing, where the Spirit's presence of Love is manifesting, - these things are tangible at times. Since you do not believe in such operations of the Spirit or fellowship with believers that do, you are limited in experiencing the reality of such. Some things are a matter of faith, practice and experience.
pj
I'm not sure if you are picking up on the difference though. There is a gift/power of healing in the NT, given to the Apostles, that isn't happening today.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Angel,
Do you know the difference between an object and the shadow it casts? See Hebrews 8:5.
What fraction of the weight of an object does its shadow weigh?
When the source of light is in relation to an object changes, the shadow changes while the obhect remains the same. When the object is The Life that is The Light of men, there is no more any shadow.
Judaism/the shadow had very little in common with the Gospel.
Jesus Christ showed His disciples how to follow God as a dear child.
Jesus Christ sent His disciples to teach the nations how to follow God as dear children.
Following God as a dear child will teach you all the theology you need.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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