ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
The Problem with Anti-Trinitarianism -
April 21st, 2012, 08:54 AM
It denies who Jesus is. That is, it denies his very nature or essence.
The Jesus of the Bible is God in flesh appearing. The Jesus of the non-Trinitarian groups is a created being, like an angel.
In fact; one group - the JW's actually believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Many people around here who are orthodox in their beliefs have expressed concern about all the non or anti-Trinitarians invading this site with their false doctrine.
At first, it didn't bother me so much because of this.
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”
Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
And this....
1 John 5:12
But now it does bother me....and I'll tell you why.
TBC
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 21st, 2012, 09:00 AM
I was viewing their beliefs of Jesus being the Son of God with the filter of my own orthodox belief that Jesus is God in the flesh.
I now see this was a mistake on my part. What I see is that the doctrine of the non-Trinitarians leads to other false beliefs; such as not understanding the true gospel; which is a gospel of grace and not of works.
By denying or failing to understand the very nature of God himself; especially as it pertains to him revealing himself in Jesus Christ the Savior of the World.....
It seems that these anti or nonTrinitarians believe in another Jesus.
If one believes in another Jesus; who is not the Jesus of the Bible, can that person really understand the gospel?
Can one be saved if they don't believe in the real Jesus...that is the Jesus Christ as revealed to the world and recorded for us in the scriptures?
What do you think?
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
I was viewing their beliefs of Jesus being the Son of God with the filter of my own orthodox belief that Jesus is God in the flesh.
I now see this was a mistake on my part. What I see is that the doctrine of the non-Trinitarians leads to other false beliefs; such as not understanding the true gospel; which is a gospel of grace and not of works.
By denying or failing to understand the very nature of God himself; especially as it pertains to him revealing himself in Jesus Christ the Savior of the World.....
It seems that these anti or nonTrinitarians believe in another Jesus.
If one believes in another Jesus; who is not the Jesus of the Bible, can that person really understand the gospel?
Can one be saved if they don't believe in the real Jesus...that is the Jesus Christ as revealed to the world and recorded for us in the scriptures?
What do you think?
I appreciate you wanting to know what I think.
However what I think is of little consequence to anyone but myself.
That being said I can tell you what Jesus said, and that is he will reveal himself to those whom keep his commandments, John 14:21.
I don't remember reading in scripture a place where it is suggested that once He reveals himself to you that you could then pass that onto someone else, and that they would not have to adhere to John 14:21 to know who Jesus is, but yet that is what I see a lot of believers doing.
The scriptures do say He is the Son of Man, the only begotten Son of God as well, and this passage suggest that alone should be enough to listen to him which will result in him revealing himself.
as far as I can tell the man speaking in the passage above is the Jesus of the Bible.
It denies who Jesus is. That is, it denies his very nature or essence.
The Jesus of the Bible is God in flesh appearing. The Jesus of the non-Trinitarian groups is a created being, like an angel.
In fact; one group - the JW's actually believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Many people around here who are orthodox in their beliefs have expressed concern about all the non or anti-Trinitarians invading this site with their false doctrine.
At first, it didn't bother me so much because of this.
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”
Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
And this....
1 John 5:12
But now it does bother me....and I'll tell you why.
TBC
Friend, being a non trin does not mean one denies that Jesus is the Christ. Your verse with Peter tell you exactly who Jesus is. It does not say that Jesus is God, it says that he is the Son of God.
To say that we deny Christ is a big error.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Friend, being a non trin does not mean one denies that Jesus is the Christ. Your verse with Peter tell you exactly who Jesus is. It does not say that Jesus is God, it says that he is the Son of God.
I was viewing their beliefs of Jesus being the Son of God with the filter of my own orthodox belief that Jesus is God in the flesh.
I now see this was a mistake on my part. What I see is that the doctrine of the non-Trinitarians leads to other false beliefs; such as not understanding the true gospel; which is a gospel of grace and not of works.
By denying or failing to understand the very nature of God himself; especially as it pertains to him revealing himself in Jesus Christ the Savior of the World.....
It seems that these anti or nonTrinitarians believe in another Jesus.
If one believes in another Jesus; who is not the Jesus of the Bible, can that person really understand the gospel?
Can one be saved if they don't believe in the real Jesus...that is the Jesus Christ as revealed to the world and recorded for us in the scriptures?
What do you think?
The gospel of Grace has nothing to do with trin/ non trin doctrine. I fully believe in grace, but I do not think it dismisses his commandments. Which are basically love. I think your reading a lot into non trin thoughts that are not there. Some think this and other think that, but they are no different then trins. Jesus was foretold to come as a man, a kinsman of David. God sent him as such. He was sinless because God created him sinless. He was a very special man, filled with the spirit of his father. That is basically our big difference. You think he was god, twe know hon as the son of God.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
The gospel of Grace has nothing to do with trin/ non trin doctrine. I fully believe in grace, but I do not think it dismisses his commandments. Which are basically love. I think your reading a lot into non trin thoughts that are not there. Some think this and other think that, but they are no different then trins. Jesus was foretold to come as a man, a kinsman of David. God sent him as such. He was sinless because God created him sinless. He was a very special man, filled with the spirit of his father. That is basically our big difference. You think he was god, twe know hon as the son of God.
Peace
So you dont believe obeying Jesus' teachings and commandments are not requirement for salvation?
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 21st, 2012, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
Friend, being a non trin does not mean one denies that Jesus is the Christ. Your verse with Peter tell you exactly who Jesus is. It does not say that Jesus is God, it says that he is the Son of God.
To say that we deny Christ is a big error.
Peace
I hope you're right....but I'm not so sure. How many of you anti-trinitarian types actually believe that you are saved by the work of Christ now....not in the sweet by and by or after you prove you're worthy by keeping his commandments?
Because the Jesus of the Bible is the Savior of the World. A Savior that cannot save to the uttermost is not the kind of Savior that a real Savior is. If you have to wonder, work for it, or are not so sure about it......I'm not sure you do understand and accept Christ.
That's my first point.
Next, many anti-trinitarians, like the JW's believe in another Jesus. A Jesus who was made, as angels were made is not the Jesus of the Bible.
And lastly, the record is that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. Now, the record (that is the scriptures) clearly states that the Father is God, Jesus Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
That should just be accepted as fact because it is true. You don't have to understand something for it to be factual. I've never formally studied physics, but I do not deny the existence of atoms or sub-atomic particles.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2012, 12:35 AM
Progressive Revelation - it's the idea that things are revealed over time rather than instantly.
It's common in the scriptures and in real life as well.
Consider the study of planar geometry. As one begins to understand mathematical relations in two dimensions..the ideas of length, perimeter, area, etc. become apparent.
One doesn't instantly understand the concepts of volume, mass, surface area and the like. The understanding of three dimensional mathematics comes later. That doesn't mean it wasn't true all along, it just means that it wasn't in the mind of the uninitiated.
Same thing with the Bible and the explanations it offers. God's ways are often prophesied, kept secret, or even just misunderstood, and then slowly revealed - sometimes even at the last second.....as in the case of the Children of Israel and their departure from the Egyptians.
In the case of the Messiah, the Jews knew that he would come. But did they have a complete understanding of who he really was?
I think Jesus makes it clear they didn't.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 22nd, 2012, 12:46 AM
One thing that is certain is that Isaiah prophesied regarding the Messaiah and his nature in chapter 9.
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."
Mighty God. There is no denying what that means, and that's just the tip of the iceberg with respect to whats revealed in this passage.
This passage is verified in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is available online - and it shows conclusively that the anti-Trinitarian view of early Christians forging the text in favor of Trinitarianism is completely false. God revealed it here, and confirmed it with other witnesses.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
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