ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
There is nothing in the Bible which shows salvation being given on the basis of Jesus being the creator.
LA.
Really?
John 8:21-24 -
Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus clarifies this statement "I am He' in the following verses: John 8:54-58 -
Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
I am familiar with that one, more specifically tho to this topic were the redaction's for the word Lord, I really wish the sight with that study was still up, it would be a lot easier to simple quote the Greek and the differences in the traditions than to try and piece back together from memory what took years to complete....
keep shinin
jerm
Btw, No Greek artlcle a ...in that verse. Rereading, that could have been misunderstood.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
As soon as it looked as if the Arians had consolidated their hold on the Empire, they turned to internal fighting and quite literally destroyed each other. Source: http://www.equip.org/articles/what-r...ened-at-nicea-
Interesting, they attack each other here all the time too.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inzl Kett
Really?
John 8:21-24 -
Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
The book of Acts basis salvation on the fact that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised by God.
Jesus clarifies this statement "I am He' in the following verses: John 8:54-58 -
Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Abraham saw the day of Jesus by the spirit of God (still future) and he rejoiced.
There again, we see from scripture that we are also as He is in Gods eyes.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
You take a piece from here and there and add them together to countermand the words of the Apostles in the book of Acts and their letters.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Slogan/motto:
Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic build
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver
Pick one of my points and we can discuss it if you wish.
Elohiym is a bad place to start in my mind because it doesn't have anything to do with anything I've posted, and for other reasons already mentioned.
If the nature and meaning of the names of God have no relation to the subject of this thread then I have completely misunderstood it and I apologize for derailing the thread and I won't trouble you further.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fzappa13
If the nature and meaning of the names of God have no relation to the subject of this thread then I have completely misunderstood it and I apologize for derailing the thread and I won't trouble you further.
You're not troubling or derailing. There are many, many names for God, and names that are descriptions of his attributes.
I'm simply stating that Elohiym is a bad choice because it can be used for God or one of his messengers. Not that context wouldn't provide the answers.... What's wrong with YHWH or I AM?
At the same time....you haven't answered my question. Is there something that I have presented that you find problematic or untruthful/inaccurate?
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver
One thing that is certain is that Isaiah prophesied regarding the Messaiah and his nature in chapter 9.
"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."
Mighty God. There is no denying what that means, and that's just the tip of the iceberg with respect to whats revealed in this passage.
This passage is verified in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is available online - and it shows conclusively that the anti-Trinitarian view of early Christians forging the text in favor of Trinitarianism is completely false. God revealed it here, and confirmed it with other witnesses.
His name shall be called--
but He is a child, a son.
will perform this-future to the prophecy.
Why will He be called everlasting Father if you claim He is God the Son?
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fzappa13
My point is that the word translated as "us" in the verse which says "Let us make man in our image" is the word "elohiym" which has been translated "God, sons of god, etc" and has been used to refer to Jehovah, Jesus, angels and, I would argue, those men and women who will receive the precious promises of Christ.
One would think this needs to be taken into account when trying to understand what was said by Jews whose words were translated from and into two different languages, neither of which has an equivalent word in their respective lexicons.
OK. That's fine. I'm not sure what it has to do with anything I've presented here as I haven't used it as a proof text of anything.
I understand that you're not trying to derail...and I respect that...
I just don't get your objection as it pertains to any of the positions I've presented here.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
It does seem as though the Gospels say that Jesus was God, especially the Gospel of John. At the same time, the arguments of anti-trinitarians are understandable, because the trinity does seem to make Christianity the least monotheistic of the Abrahamic faiths... not exactly a title to be proud of among faiths that pride themselves on their monotheism.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
I know you have never seen Jesus because if you had then He would have shown Himself to you as the man that He is and not as the God which you claim He is.
That's your opinion. You are entitled to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
You are so sure that your understanding of Him from scriptures is not slanted by your own reasoning.
There is nothing in the Bible which shows salvation being given on the basis of Jesus being the creator.
LA.
Maybe not. But there is direct scriptural evidence that Jesus is the Creator. And, if Trinitarianism were false, this wouldn't make sense and all the scriptures would fall because they would be contradictory.
Genesis 1:1
John 1:1-1:3
John 1:10
Colossians 1:16
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
There is nothing in the Bible which shows salvation being given on the basis of Jesus being the creator.
LA.
On second thought...
John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Please note that the word "He" is in italics which means it is not found in the original text. It was added. Now, read the verse without the insertion.
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”
Who is the I Am LA?
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
It does seem as though the Gospels say that Jesus was God, especially the Gospel of John. At the same time, the arguments of anti-trinitarians are understandable, because the trinity does seem to make Christianity the least monotheistic of the Abrahamic faiths... not exactly a title to be proud of among faiths that pride themselves on their monotheism.
Even so, and I understand your point, my bigger concern is to be true to the full biblical witness, if, indeed, we take the entireity of Scripture seriously. Whether or not Judaism and Islam perceive us as monotheistic is lesser concern.
Eucharist [thanksgiving] is the state of the perfect man. Eucharist is the life of paradise. Eucharist is the only full and real response of man to God's creation, redemption, and gift of heaven. - Alexander Schemann
We tend to forget that Jesus had God IN him. This would mean that he spoke for God, he also spoke for himself. One has to understand who was speaking when he spoke. The spirit of God would claim pre existence, but Jesus (the body) could not. I also think that the spirit went into him when he was anointed. And God's spirit left him on the cross. He was sent as a man to be the Lamb of God.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 23rd, 2012, 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
We tend to forget that Jesus had God IN him. This would mean that he spoke for God, he also spoke for himself. One has to understand who was speaking when he spoke. The spirit of God would claim pre existence, but Jesus (the body) could not. I also think that the spirit went into him when he was anointed. And God's spirit left him on the cross. He was sent as a man to be the Lamb of God.
Peace
I know you're a nice guy and everything.... but what you're saying here isn't true. Or at least, it's not the truth of what the scriptures teach.
John 8:58
John 17:5
Revelation 13:8
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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