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I know you're a nice guy and everything.... but what you're saying here isn't true. Or at least, it's not the truth of what the scriptures teach.
John 8:58
John 17:5
Revelation 13:8
Thank you, I try to be nice.
How about John 17:3
You have to remember friend that Jesus not only spoke for himself, he spoke for the father. Jesus the body is a created human being, but God's spirit spoke THROUGH him. Most folks do not realize that.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
The Bible is full of scriptures that give Arians headaches. That is why they have to alter the text.
This one here is probably one of the most problematic.--->John 8:58 -“Before Abraham was, I AM” These are words spoken by Jesus Himself. You can compare them with Exodus 3:14 - And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Jesus is using the phrase 'I AM' to state that He is God.
It's trinitarians that have to alter text! See .... Comma Johanneum,
This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament. Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not "I am is the one speaking to you!"
In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" (I AM) And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!
What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am he," that is, "I am the Messiah."
Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."
The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.
Paul
From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Oh God of Truth, deliver us.
~ Ancient Prayer
I don't have any knowledge of differences in gospel accounts between the Churches of East and West. If you know of some, I would be interested to learn.
as I said the sight that held all the info in an organized reference manner is down.
I did however discuss some of the details here in 07, if memory serves me correct it was on page 46 of the "Jesus is NOT God" thread.
I am finding database error here at TOL this morning when I try to search that title for you, hopefully later the search function will work.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
How about John 17:3
You have to remember friend that Jesus not only spoke for himself, he spoke for the father. Jesus the body is a created human being, but God's spirit spoke THROUGH him. Most folks do not realize that.
Peace
Keypurr, you should also remember that the text of the original scriptures contained no punctuation marks in both the Hebrew and the Greek.
John's gospel was written in uncial script. So, let's look at the passage that you suggest in the form of it's original language, and that of the translation you've posted.
John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"
Now let's look at it the way that John originally recorded it.
"And this is eternal life that they may know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"
Without the commas separating clauses and changing thought, the text reads that the true God and Jesus Christ are one and the same.
Let's say you're the son of the town's only doctor. You could write; my father and town's only doctor went to livery.
In this language usage two separate nominative nouns both apply to the same person - your father.
In this sense, it was not two people who went to livery ie. your father and the town's only doctor; rather one man went who fulfilled both roles - your father, who also happend to be the town's only doctor.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremysdemo
as I said the sight that held all the info in an organized reference manner is down.
I did however discuss some of the details here in 07, if memory serves me correct it was on page 46 of the "Jesus is NOT God" thread.
I am finding database error here at TOL this morning when I try to search that title for you, hopefully later the search function will work.
keep shinin
jerm
OK JD. If you find it good, but let's get to the heart of the matter.
Are you saying that there is textual variance in the canonized scriptures of the East and West, or that there are canonization differences? I know that latter to be true, I don't know that of the former.
"Origen of Alexandria was an early figure in the codification of the Biblical canon. He was a scholar well educated in the realm of both theology and pagan philosophy but was posthumously condemned at the Second Council of Constantinople in 553. Origen decided to make his canon include all of the books in the current Catholic canon except for four books: James, 2nd Peter, and the 2nd and 3rd epistles of John.[22]
Addditionally, the church of the East later rejected Revelation as canonical.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
OK JD. If you find it good, but let's get to the heart of the matter.
Are you saying that there is textual variance in the canonized scriptures of the East and West, or that there are canonization differences? I know that latter to be true, I don't know that of the former.
as I mentioned before the study primarily focused on title changes used for Jesus that occurred in Western traditions as early as the 2nd century.
these where all pre-cannon redactions found in the extant text, so yes they made it into the Western cannon.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremysdemo
as I mentioned before the study primarily focused on title changes used for Jesus that occurred in Western traditions as early as the 2nd century.
these where all pre-cannon redactions found in the extant text, so yes they made it into the Western cannon.
keep shinin
jerm
That's a rather weighty charge....so yes....we should examine some proof of this claim.
I did some research yesterday....but misplaced my notes..I'll have to start over.
The oldest known fragment of the original, or rather copy of original papyrus is from the Book of John and dates to sometime late first or early second century. Examining this fragment shows perfect consistency with modern translations. I'll find the text, and the museum where the fragment is contained and post that info later today. God willing.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Keypurr, you should also remember that the text of the original scriptures contained no punctuation marks in both the Hebrew and the Greek.
John's gospel was written in uncial script. So, let's look at the passage that you suggest in the form of it's original language, and that of the translation you've posted.
John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"
Now let's look at it the way that John originally recorded it.
"And this is eternal life that they may know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"
Without the commas separating clauses and changing thought, the text reads that the true God and Jesus Christ are one and the same.
Let's say you're the son of the town's only doctor. You could write; my father and town's only doctor went to livery.
In this language usage two separate nominative nouns both apply to the same person - your father.
In this sense, it was not two people who went to livery ie. your father and the town's only doctor; rather one man went who fulfilled both roles - your father, who also happend to be the town's only doctor.
Guyver... Your reading into the Gospel of John... Not out of the Gospel of John! You need to put John's Gospel in the correct context it was written... as he stated...
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Your answer to the following question will revel how you read and understand scripture....
John wrote in John 20:31... These have been written so that you may believe:
1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is the anointed one of God (the Christ)
If you answered #1 then you are fully in league with the traditions of men and out side the teachings of what John wanted you to believe!
I really cannot make it any simpler...
Paul
From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,
From the laziness that is content with half-truths,
From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,
Oh God of Truth, deliver us.
~ Ancient Prayer
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierac
Guyver... Your reading into the Gospel of John... Not out of the Gospel of John! You need to put John's Gospel in the correct context it was written... as he stated...
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Your answer to the following question will revel how you read and understand scripture....
John wrote in John 20:31... These have been written so that you may believe:
1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is the anointed one of God (the Christ)
If you answered #1 then you are fully in league with the traditions of men and out side the teachings of what John wanted you to believe!
I really cannot make it any simpler...
Paul
Thank you for your contribution. However, St. John disagree's with your assessment and shows such here.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
So, to pull from John...it would seem most logical to interpret everything about Jesus from this crystal clear perspective.
PS. Both 1 and 2 are correct.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Keypurr, you should also remember that the text of the original scriptures contained no punctuation marks in both the Hebrew and the Greek.
John's gospel was written in uncial script. So, let's look at the passage that you suggest in the form of it's original language, and that of the translation you've posted.
John 17:3
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"
Now let's look at it the way that John originally recorded it.
"And this is eternal life that they may know You the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent"
Without the commas separating clauses and changing thought, the text reads that the true God and Jesus Christ are one and the same.
Let's say you're the son of the town's only doctor. You could write; my father and town's only doctor went to livery.
In this language usage two separate nominative nouns both apply to the same person - your father.
In this sense, it was not two people who went to livery ie. your father and the town's only doctor; rather one man went who fulfilled both roles - your father, who also happend to be the town's only doctor.
I must be dumber than dumb for I see no differences in the two verses as you posted them. They both imply God the only God AND Jesus Christ that he sent. The word AND implies two friend, GOd AND Jesus. Don't try to make it fit any preconceived ideas. Just read it as it is. Your looking at it as Jesus is God so you don't see the AND.
Peace friend
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
you can review that material and see what data the authors were using to draw their conclusions/criticism of the text, ironically from John as well (since we were discussing it)
Slogan/motto:
"The Chief End of Me Is To Love GOD & Enjoy Him Forever!"
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 02:24 PM
JESUS made the uttermost claim to being the ABSOLUTE DEITY that have ever come forth from the lips of a man when HE said this:Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And the "Jews" knew exactly what HE was implying by that statement. That's why they picked up stones to stone HIM:Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
....how intellectually dishonest of them. 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
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