ReligionDiscuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver
On second thought...
John 8:24
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Please note that the word "He" is in italics which means it is not found in the original text. It was added. Now, read the verse without the insertion.
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”
Who is the I Am LA?
I can give you a better one than that--
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
LA
Not to butt in but, this does not answer Guyver's question, who is "I Am"?
The winner of the 2011 Truthsmacker of the Year Award
If this were the case, then wouldn't you just read John 1:1 and reject non-trinitarianism?
PS. Thanks JD.
No, John 1 is the most questionable verse in NT scripture. What is the defined logos?
To some its God spirit, others the word, still to others it is God's plan.
I think that logos is the plan that God made to save mankind from sin. It could also mean the spirit that the man Jesus had IN him. Either way, it does not make Jesus God.
If Jesus was God why did he just not come out and say "I am God", he didn't because he is the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Lamb of God. If he was God, he would not have said his Father is greated. He would not have prayed to his God. He would not have needed the power that was given to him, he would have had it. How could he die if he was God?
These are the questions I asked of God many years ago. I feel in my heart he has answered them. Jesus is just who he said he was, the Son of God. A man, kinsman of David, sinless and perfect. Mary gave birth to him. He was not God friend. He is the greatest man to ever walk on this earth. God, his God has made him Lord of ALL creation, If he was God he would not need to be elevated to that position.
Ponder over that and pray for truth.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon
I can give you a better one than that--
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
LA
Didn't you just argue for Christ's divinity here?
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
No, John 1 is the most questionable verse in NT scripture. What is the defined logos?
To some its God spirit, others the word, still to others it is God's plan.
Are you saying that John 1 is the most questionable verse in scripture because of the word Logos?
And are you sure about saying that John 1 is the most questionable verse? I can think of a couple that top that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
If Jesus was God why did he just not come out and say "I am God",
You mean like he did here?
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:17
John 8:48
Quote:
Originally Posted by keypurr
Ponder over that and pray for truth.
Isn't the Bible truth keypurr? Why would we have to pray for truth, when God himself has clearly recorded truth for us in his word?
PS. Peace be with you also.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Are you saying that John 1 is the most questionable verse in scripture because of the word Logos?
And are you sure about saying that John 1 is the most questionable verse? I can think of a couple that top that.
You mean like he did here?
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:17
John 8:48
These don't do it friend.
Quote:
Isn't the Bible truth keypurr? Why would we have to pray for truth, when God himself has clearly recorded truth for us in his word?
PS. Peace be with you also.
Truth is in scripture, you just have to find it and prove it with scripture.
Why did Jesus speak in parables? I think so only the spiritually minded people would understand him. Same with the Bible. If you want him, you have to look for him. We pray to show him that he is our God and we wish to know more about him.
consider these:
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
I was a trin for many years. I know how hard it is to open the mind to new ideas. I could never go back to being a trin. Makeing another God is breaking his commandment.
Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; And those that seek me diligently shall find me.
Peace my friend, like me, keep seeking
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Slogan/motto:
Some things you have to see to believe...other things have to be believed to be seen.
Reputation:
April 24th, 2012, 10:50 PM
I did a typo up there keypurr.
John 8:58, not John 8:48
As to the rest of your points....especially the best one you guys have, 1 Corinthians 11:3...
You understand that all these verses refer to Jesus in his role as Savior, right? Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah...these are titles that pertain to him in that role.
These are descriptive of his position in the Godhead, not his nature.
One God; three persons. That's the doctrine of the Trinity.
PS. I don't see how you can say that Revelation 1:8 doesn't do it. How many Almighty God's can there be?
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
Slogan/motto:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Reputation:
April 25th, 2012, 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver
Didn't you just argue for Christ's divinity here?
You might mean something about Christs divinity from the trinitarian standpoint.
Scripture is clear that Christ is a man
Christ was born a man.
Christ was made both Lord and Christ.
Christ became the author of salvation.
Christ is the firstborn of the new creation.
Christ is the beginning of the creation of God.
What ever Christ is now, He was not before He was born, made, became.
I am sad that you do not know the man Jesus Christ.
You may know something of God who is the Father of Jesus Christ as did the OT believers, and I do not say that they are going to hell but that NT salvation is much more than that, and if you had it then you could testify of the Glorious man who saved you, not in a trinitarian fashion but as the elevated man that He is now but who did not exist before He was born except in the heart and mind of his Father.
The one who claims Jesus is the God/man is not the Spirit of God, Christs Father.
you can review that material and see what data the authors were using to draw their conclusions/criticism of the text, ironically from John as well (since we were discussing it)
keep shinin
jerm
I studied the link JD. You do make an interesting claim and one that is worthy of research. I opens up a can of worms IMO and creates problems.
If mortal (ie. sinful) man can manipulate, distort, or just flat out butcher God's word and pass those changes down...thereby creating a "not God's word" version of the Bible....
Then that's really problematic for anyone who puts their faith in God as it pertains to the scriptures being the ultimate source of truth in this world. Doesn't it?
Thankfully, as it pertains to the nature of the Messiah (Jesus) God has seen fit to make sure we have an early record confirmed in the text of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Isaiah 9:6
There can be no evidence of zealous Christian editing from this find.
Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.
I studied the link JD. You do make an interesting claim and one that is worthy of research. I opens up a can of worms IMO and creates problems.
If mortal (ie. sinful) man can manipulate, distort, or just flat out butcher God's word and pass those changes down...thereby creating a "not God's word" version of the Bible....
Then that's really problematic for anyone who puts their faith in God as it pertains to the scriptures being the ultimate source of truth in this world. Doesn't it?
the idea that man does something to corrupt Gods word is not new to our century, in fact depending on how you interpret it that is exactly what Jesus accused the Pharisees of, Mark 7:8, which shows even if you have a perfect record of His word it can be neglected/distorted and made for not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guyver
Thankfully, as it pertains to the nature of the Messiah (Jesus) God has seen fit to make sure we have an early record confirmed in the text of Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Isaiah 9:6
There can be no evidence of zealous Christian editing from this find.
this much is true.
The word of God to me tho is not words on a page it is a living part of Himself, just as he spoke and created earth, so it lives on in it's perfect form since He promised to always preserve a remnant, Isaiah 10:21, Zephaniah 3:13, it is preserved in man by His Spirit (that no man/scholar should boast), I'm reminded of a time with Ezra that the entire Torah was recanted from memory when scrolls were lost.
His Son did tell us to seek and we will find, so if we seek and find that there has been some shady goings on in distant textual traditions past that only leads us to rely on Him more for truth, letting His Spirit do the leading more than ever, which is not problematic IMHO.
Some people are content with mediocrity in their studies and tradition, they are not seeking, they are not asking or they are asking people for easy answers instead of God so for them this will never be an issue.
But some God's Spirit is working in, refining, washing away sand and building their foundations on solid rock, for them they will fare well in the waves of these uncertain times, Psalm 23:1.
Jesus told his disciples he will send them the Spirit to bring to remembrance everything he has said, I wonder why that was, considering 99% of what he taught was directly from Torah, why wouldn't they just quote it from the LXX or whatever copies where floating about at the time? my answer is that the perfect Word of God is only active/alive with His Spirit, that is where my trust is in Him not in papyrus.
As to the rest of your points....especially the best one you guys have, 1 Corinthians 11:3...
You understand that all these verses refer to Jesus in his role as Savior, right? Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah...these are titles that pertain to him in that role.
These are descriptive of his position in the Godhead, not his nature.
One God; three persons. That's the doctrine of the Trinity.
PS. I don't see how you can say that Revelation 1:8 doesn't do it. How many Almighty God's can there be?
Rev 1:8 is God talking not Jesus. Jesus is not the almighty friend. Even if there a trinity god Jesus tells you his father is greater, so his father is the all mighty.
The word "godhead" it self has been questioned by some scholars. Not being a reader of Greek I do not know the answer to that.
When Jesus said "Before Abraham was I Am" , what was he really saying?
If he was speaking with the spirit of God then you might be right, however, if he was speaking for himself, he was saying that he is the Christ. I sincerely do not see him as the almighty God, I see him as God's son, a man, a very special sinless man who contained the spirit of his father.
Friend, I am glad that your interested in God and willing to spend the time to see who he is. Please never stop reading his words, but never assume anything.
Peace
Psalm 1[/color] and Job 28:28
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
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