[Throwback]

For most of my life I bough into the idea that perhaps the Bible's biggest strongpoint was that of the fulfilled prophesy that could be found within its pages. As what can best be described as a New Testament Christian, until the last 5 or 6 years I really hadn't taken many deep dives into the Old Testament. I simply took for granted that the things said in the NT always jibed with what was written in the OT. When I first realized that was not always the case, my first reaction was that of rationalization, and that went on for about 5 years until the intellectually honest person in me could no longer keep up the charade. I finally was able to see the flaws and call a spade a spade despite the fact that I badly wanted to believe the Bible had no flaws.
In this thread I wish to bring some of the prophetic problems to light in hopes of putting the truth out there as well as getting a better understanding of them by putting various studeous eyes of critical thinkers on some of them.

[Throwback]

The first I wish to discuss comes from Mark 1:2-4 and the verses read:

As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;

THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.’”

John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

The implication most often drawn from this text is that John the baptizer was prophesied about and fulfilled the prophesy that he would be a forerunner for the Messiah. This very text harkens back to Isaiah 40:3. So I ask the question; Does Isaiah 40 have ANYTHING to do with a Messianic prophesy? And where in the Hebrew scriptures does it even speak of the Messiah having a forerunner as the gospels indicate? Let's look at the text and its context to see if the writer of Mark as well as the religious teachers of the passage made a right application of the Isaiah text.

According to Isaiah, there was a voice crying out to him in/from the wilderness telling HIM to:
"Prepare the way for the Lord! Straighten the roads of our God! Fill every valley… flatten the mountains and hills! All crooked paths must be straightened, and the ruts in the fields must be smoothed! Then the glory and salvation of God will be seen; for, it was Jehovah who told us to do this.'

After Isaiah heard the voice say theose things to him, acording to verse 6, the voice then shouted to him to: 'Yell!'
His reply to the voice was this question: 'What should I yell?'

The voice then responds by telling Isaiah how insignificant man is when compared to the utter and unimaginable greatness of the LORD and that Jacob/Israel should rejoice because:

O IsraEl, My servant… Jacob whom I have chosen… AbraHam's seed whom I've loved… those whom I've snatched from the ends of the earth… those whom I called from its heights, and to whom I've said this: 'As My servant I chose you, and you I have never abandoned. So, don't be afraid, for I'm with you; and don't stray, because I am your God… the One who gives you your strength. So, with My righteous right hand, I will help you and save you.'

Your enemies will all be ashamed, and they will not fail to respect you; for, [as enemies] they won't exist, since all who oppose you will perish! You will search and not find them… those drunks who shout insults at you, because they will no longer be… there'll be none to wage war against you, for I am your God who's at your right hand!

No mention of the Messiah or a forerunner that was to come before him in the Isaiah text, so what did Mark make the application that Isaiah 40:3 was a prophesy about John coming before Jesus?

[Throwback]

The second one I wish to discuss is found in Matthew 26:31. In context it reads:

Then, as they ate, Jesus took a loaf, and after giving thanks, broke it and gave it to the disciples saying: 'Take some and eat it, because this is my body.' He also took a cup [of wine], and after giving thanks, gave it to them saying, 'All of you drink from it, 28 because this is my blood of the New Sacred Agreement, which will be poured out for many to forgive [their] sins. But I tell you that I definitely won't drink of this product of the vine anymore, until that day when I will drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.'

Finally, after singing songs of praise, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

[It was there that] Jesus said to them: 'All of you will be stumbled [by what will happen to] me tonight, because it's written: I will beat the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.

After the Passover meal, Jesus and his 12 go to the Mt. of Olives and there Jesus tells them that they will be made to stumble because of him that night, because it was written in Zechariah 13:7 the following;

'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

Shall we read Zechariah 13:1 -14:3 to see if the text Matthew claims Jesus appealed to actually has anything prophetic about the Messiah's last days?

'In that Day, all [springs] will then open wide, for the rinsing and cleansing of David's house, and for those who live in JeruSalem. And in that Day it will be,' says Jehovah of Armies; 'The names of their idols I'll wipe from the land, so they'll be remembered no more. And I will remove from the land, the false prophets with their unclean spirits.
'And if there's a man who still prophecies; his father and the mother who bore him, must tell him that he may no longer live! For, he has told lies in the Name of the Lord. Then his father and the mother who bore him, will tie him up, because he prophesied. And it will be in that Day, that their visions will bring them disgrace, as will the things that they prophesied. They'll cover their heads with animal hides, because they will know that they've lied. And they'll say, I'm not a prophet; I'm just a man who works the ground… this is all that I've done since my youth!

'And then I will ask, So, what are these wounds in your hands?

'And they will reply, They were struck in the homes of our loved ones.

'O broadsword, awaken against [such] a man, and against the shepherds [who live in] My land,' says Jehovah the Almighty. 'Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep… against the shepherds I'll bring My hand.
'And in that Day,' says Jehovah; 'two-thirds will be wiped out and gone, but a third will still remain. Then I'll try them as [you] try gold. But, they will call on My Name. Then I will say, You're My people, and they will say, Jehovah's our God.'

'Look; The Lord's [Great] Day now approaches, when spoils will be divided among them. To JeruSalem I'll gather all nations, and the city will be captured thereafter. All the homes will be looted, and all the women will be raped. Then half of the city will be led away, and the rest (those who are My people), will not be destroyed from the [land]. Then the Lord will attack all those nations, in His battle on the Day of the war.

So, according to Matthew 26:31, Jesus told his disciples that they would be shaken and scattered because it was prophesied that God will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. Interesting considering the fact that according to Zechariah the shepherds (plural) that would be struck by God were lumped in as it pertains to the punishment from God, with the false prophets spoken of previously in Zechariah 13. These were people God is said to have comtempt for and were being held responsible for misleading God's chosen sheep, I mean people. How in the world is this in any way, shape, or form a prophesy foretelling the plight of the Jewish Messiah and his disciples?
It appears that the writer of Matthew either misquoted Jesus in hopes of duping the unstudied Jews that he wrote to into believing Jesus fulfilled a prophesy about him that was not in fact about him, or Matthew's writer correctly quoted Jesus and it was Jesus that was doing the duping. Either way, it's not a good look for the Bible.

[chair]

Matthew is not trying to show that these were literally fulfilled prophecies. These statements of his are a sort of Midrash, a way of using verses to illustrate a point, even at the risk of being a tad too creative.

I would guess that his Jewish audience was aware of what he was doing.

[Throwback]

Originally Posted by chair

Matthew is not trying to show that these were literally fulfilled prophecies. These statements of his are a sort of Midrash, a way of using verses to illustrate a point, even at the risk of being a tad too creative.

I would guess that his Jewish audience was aware of what he was doing.

So you've saying that according to Matthew Jesus was exaggerating or embellishing on as opposed to flat out misinterpreting the text of Zechariah.
Is being purposefully deceitful somehow better than being errant but honest?

Regardless of what you wish to propose, from reading what ws written it seems rather clear that Matthew WAS in fact trying to show that the situation in question was an example of a literally fulfilled prophesy. The text seems rather clear on that idea.

[chair]

Originally Posted by Throwback

So you've saying that according to Matthew Jesus was exaggerating or embellishing on as opposed to flat out misinterpreting the text of Zechariah.
Is being purposefully deceitful somehow better than being errant but honest?

Regardless of what you wish to propose, from reading what ws written it seems rather clear that Matthew WAS in fact trying to show that the situation in question was an example of a literally fulfilled prophesy. The text seems rather clear on that idea.

The concept of a Midrash is foreign to your thinking. Call it a cultural difference. I suggest reading the wikipedia article on Midrash as a start- it looks OK to me ( I haven't read it in detail):

Many midrashim start off with a seemingly unrelated sentence from the Biblical books of Psalms, Proverbs or the Prophets. This sentence later turns out to metaphorically reflect the content of the rabbinical interpretation offered. This strategy is used particularly in a sub-genre of midrash known as the "petikhta."

Some Midrash discussions are highly metaphorical, and many Jewish authors stress that they are not intended to be taken literally.

[Nick M]

Since prophecy is a way of persuading, there is failed prophecy in the Bible.

[Throwback]

Originally Posted by Nick M

Since prophecy is a way of persuading, there is failed prophecy in the Bible.

So that leads one to wonder what can be believed to be a prophesy one can trust in. If the people are not persuaded by the prophesy, than what you have implied is that the prophesy is nullified. That logic hardly makes ANY prophetic scriptures credible and stands against the various texts that say ALL of the prophets that speak from a revelation from the LORD must have their prophecies come to pass otherwise they are false prophets worthy of being stoned to death.

[Guyver]

Originally Posted by chair

The concept of a Midrash is foreign to your thinking. Call it a cultural difference. I suggest reading the wikipedia article on Midrash as a start- it looks OK to me ( I haven't read it in detail):

Many midrashim start off with a seemingly unrelated sentence from the Biblical books of Psalms, Proverbs or the Prophets. This sentence later turns out to metaphorically reflect the content of the rabbinical interpretation offered. This strategy is used particularly in a sub-genre of midrash known as the "petikhta."

Some Midrash discussions are highly metaphorical, and many Jewish authors stress that they are not intended to be taken literally.

A most interesting point, and approach to addressing throwback's questions. My compliments.

Here an excerpt from the wiki link on midrash.

"Midrash halakha are the works in which the sources in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) of the traditionally received laws are identified. These Midrashim often predate the Mishnah. The Midrash linking a verse to a halakha will often function as a proof of a law's authenticity; a correct elucidation of the Torah carries with it the support of the halakhah, and often the reason for the rule's existence (although many rabbinical laws have no direct Biblical source). The term is applied also to the derivation of new laws, either by means of a correct interpretation of the obvious meaning of scriptural words themselves or by the application of certain hermeneutic rules."

Now I see why we have theologians and why people buy commentaries.

[Guyver]

Throwback, I appreciate your honesty. You've asked some difficult questions to be sure and there may be no easy answer from our perspective. I have considered some of the same questions that you pose as well. Many skeptics just flat out deny the validity of any Biblical prophecy altogether, which I think is an extreme from the other direction and a mistake.

Chair's response is really one to consider. And just patiently and prayerfully wait for the answers that you need. I believe God will give them in time.

[ttruscott]

Originally Posted by Throwback

For most of my life I bough into the idea that perhaps the Bible's biggest strongpoint was that of the fulfilled prophesy that could be found within its pages. As what can best be described as a New Testament Christian, until the last 5 or 6 years I really hadn't taken many deep dives into the Old Testament. I simply took for granted that the things said in the NT always jibed with what was written in the OT. When I first realized that was not always the case, my first reaction was that of rationalization, and that went on for about 5 years until the intellectually honest person in me could no longer keep up the charade. I finally was able to see the flaws and call a spade a spade despite the fact that I badly wanted to believe the Bible had no flaws.
In this thread I wish to bring some of the prophetic problems to light in hopes of putting the truth out there as well as getting a better understanding of them by putting various studeous eyes of critical thinkers on some of them.

And thus the Holy Spirit separates the merely religious from those who follow HIM.

Peace and good luck with this,

Ted

[student x]

Originally Posted by Throwback

The first I wish to discuss comes from Mark 1:2-4 and the verses read:

The implication most often drawn from this text is that John the baptizer was prophesied about and fulfilled the prophesy that he would be a forerunner for the Messiah. This very text harkens back to Isaiah 40:3. So I ask the question; Does Isaiah 40 have ANYTHING to do with a Messianic prophesy? And where in the Hebrew scriptures does it even speak of the Messiah having a forerunner as the gospels indicate? Let's look at the text and its context to see if the writer of Mark as well as the religious teachers of the passage made a right application of the Isaiah text.

According to Isaiah, there was a voice crying out to him in/from the wilderness telling HIM to:
"Prepare the way for the Lord! Straighten the roads of our God! Fill every valley… flatten the mountains and hills! All crooked paths must be straightened, and the ruts in the fields must be smoothed! Then the glory and salvation of God will be seen; for, it was Jehovah who told us to do this.'

After Isaiah heard the voice say theose things to him, acording to verse 6, the voice then shouted to him to: 'Yell!'
His reply to the voice was this question: 'What should I yell?'

The voice then responds by telling Isaiah how insignificant man is when compared to the utter and unimaginable greatness of the LORD and that Jacob/Israel should rejoice because:


No mention of the Messiah or a forerunner that was to come before him in the Isaiah text, so what did Mark make the application that Isaiah 40:3 was a prophesy about John coming before Jesus?

A question: are your hermeneutic principles held in check through how the LORD and the apostles used Scripture, as proof and fulfillment, or are you looking for ways to justify something else

[freelight]

Originally Posted by ttruscott

And thus the Holy Spirit separates the merely religious from those who follow HIM.

Peace and good luck with this,

Ted

God also gave us 'intelligence' and other faculties of discernment to research and determine things. Seeing the use of 'literary devices' and 'creative license' employed by NT writers using OT passages to support the cause of Jesus (as they see him) or their own theological perspective is a noteworthy observation of the situation-context of the writers intent (his target-audience so to speak).





pj

[freelight]

Originally Posted by Throwback

It appears that the writer of Matthew either misquoted Jesus in hopes of duping the unstudied Jews that he wrote to into believing Jesus fulfilled a prophesy about him that was not in fact about him, or Matthew's writer correctly quoted Jesus and it was Jesus that was doing the duping. Either way, it's not a good look for the Bible.

With a coin toss either way, its a double whammy. But back to the writers intent, - the motive of the gospels were naturally directed by the writers agenda.



pj

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by Throwback

So that leads one to wonder what can be believed to be a prophesy one can trust in. If the people are not persuaded by the prophesy, than what you have implied is that the prophesy is nullified.

You have it backwards. The prophecies that are meant to persuade are only nullified if the people are persuaded by the prophecy, otherwise the prophecies come to pass and the people that refused to be persuaded are destroyed by their stubbornness.

Jeremiah 7:25-34 25Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. 27Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth. 29Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath. 30For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. 31And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. 32Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. 33And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. 34Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.