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What scripture describes redeemable qualities existent in fallen men?
And please explain why you think God redeems sinners, accordingly.
Nang
God redeems sinners because he loves them, sending his own son for their sake while they were still sinners, and indeed he desires all men to be saved.
For this reason, all of us are redeemable apart from the no doubt very small number who have experienced all there is to experience of the Lord and the Spirit and then fallen away.
Given the above, all our qualities are redeemable.
I suspect though that you are looking for something more. Perhaps you want to sun-bathe in the warmth and ecstacy of man's depravity and I am sure you will quote loads of proof texts to this end, all out of context in the usual manner. So just to cheer you up, here are a few texts to rectify your lack:
Psalm 8:5
Job 7:17
Gen 5:24
Gen 6:8
Gen 1:26
But then again, such openness and delight is very distracting so I suppose I should finish back in familiar territory:
How readily, upon the gospel plan
That question has its answer-What is man?
Sinful and weak, in ev'ry sense a wretch;
An instrument, whose cords, upon the stretch,
And strain'd to the last screw that he can bear,
Yield only discord in his Maker's ear:
Once the blest residence of truth divine,
Glorious as Solyma's interior shrine,
Where, in his own oracular abode,
Dwelt visibly the light-creating God;
But made long since, like Babylon of old,
A den of mischiefs never to be told:
(William Cowper)
There, does that make you feel better?
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
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Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
“It is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all; for then the effulgence would not answer the reality. For the same reason it is not proper that one should be manifested exceedingly, and another but very little. It is highly proper that the effulgent glory of God should answer his real excellency; that the splendor should be answerable to the real and essential glory, for the same reason that it is proper and excellent for God to glorify himself at all. Thus it is necessary that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever be bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired, and the sense of it not so great …"
- Jonthan Edwards, Works II, 528
“Mercy apparently cannot be conceived apart from its pure negation, σκληρύνει. Hence even the merciful disposition of God cannot be rightly apprehended, except through the conception of the absence of mercy …”
- F. Davidson, Predestination, 13
"The fall of man, by which God’s chief work on earth was ruined, was not an unexpected event which took the omniscient God by surprise; nor could it disconcert that scheme which had been originally conceived in the eternal mind. “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world,” (Acts 15:18.) Although God is not the author of sin, and can never look upon evil but with the strongest disapprobation; yet, having created man a free, accountable creature, and having endowed him with full ability to obey the law under which he was placed, he chose to leave him to the freedom of his own will, without exerting any direct influence on him, either to preserve him in obedience, or to cause him to fall. And, although he knew that man would fall into sin and ruin, yet he purposed to permit this, that is, not to hinder it; because he knew that he could make it the occasion of a more illustrious display of his attributes, especially of his justice and mercy, than could be made under other circumstances."
Your doctrine does claim that God elected those who are saved before salvation without regard to anything a particular person does or doesn't do, right?
If so, then the preaching of the "gospel" as "You may have already won eternal life" should be obvious, even it isn't obvious who is elect and who is not.
But you preach as though everyone could be saved, in apparent ignorance to your own doctrine.
So, what I've presented is a more concise representation of what the Calvinist gospel is.
I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.
2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Slogan/motto:
As long as people demand more government, they will get it. Government reflects the people.
Reputation:
May 23rd, 2012, 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nang
Lon,
Muz is notorious for putting words in peoples' mouths, and making it appear they say what they don't say.
Nang
Nang, I don't see that at all. He is stating what is obvious. It's not his fault that you believe God created man just to send him to hell except for the select few. Which of course, your part of.
Governments coerce others with a two-edged sword: giving the state the power to do things you like necessarily requires giving the state the power to do things you don't like, and giving the state the power to restrict behavior of which you don't approve gives them the power to restrict behavior of which you do approve. The right way to change hearts and minds is not coercion. It is persuasion
Everyone is equally guilty before God. There's not one single person among us ...Mary, Popes, New Age Guru, Dr. Phil, Opera, sports idols, Tiger Woods, theologian, pop artist, hero, et. al. who doesn't deserve eternal death.
The Elect are saved by God's sheer mercy alone. Our redemption ain't based on our being "Good People" or, even, 'better people' (vis-a-vis everyone else).
If God were to send all deserving sinners to Eternal Hell, nobody would be left.
The Lord can be arbitrary in salvation because there are no "Good People" who might then be treated unfairly.
"Therefore, just as sin
entered the world through
one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death
came to all men, because all
sinned"
(Romans 5:12Â NIV)
Everyone is equally guilty before God. There's not one single person among us ...Mary, Popes, New Age Guru, Dr. Phil, Opera, sports idols, Tiger Woods, theologian, pop artist, hero, et. al. who doesn't deserve eternal death.
The Elect are saved by God's sheer mercy alone. Our redemption ain't based on our being "Good People" or, even, 'better people' (vis-a-vis everyone else).
If God were to send all deserving sinners to Eternal Hell, nobody would be left.
The Lord can be arbitrary in salvation because there are no "Good People" who might then be treated unfairly.
"Therefore, just as sin
entered the world through
one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death
came to all men, because all
sinned"
(Romans 5:12Â NIV)
You've obviously missed the last 18 pages of posts. According to Calvinism, God predestines the ones who are going to be the elect without reference to anything they deserve or don't deserve. (That's a fancy way of saying that he predestines them arbitrarily and you have obviously got the gist of this quite well.) These are all given the opportunity to repent because God decreed that they should. But all the rest God decreed should never have the opportunity to repent and so they are automatically condemned from the moment they are born.
The sole reason God causes all these people to be born and yet not be given the opportunity to repent is so that those few who have been predestined to salvation can see how lucky they were to have received God's mercy.
Actually, there is another related reason: it's so that Calvinists who have been truly elected can feel great about being the special chosen people, without having to have a bad conscience about the rest. A bit like in those films or documentaries you sometimes see where there are these incredibly rich people living right next door to incredibly poor people and these incredibly rich people never feel any conscience towards the incredibly poor people right on their doorstep. They watch them dying of hunger and thirst and in great pain and disease and somehow manage to believe that they deserve it and that it is quite a normal state of affairs. In the same way Calvinists don't need to feel any conscience about the poor blighters who are not going to be saved because they know that they are the chosen ones and there is nothing that can be done about it.
Calvinists have a phrase to describe this state of affairs: God's perfect righteousness.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Slogan/motto:
". . Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4
Reputation:
May 23rd, 2012, 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Reign
You've obviously missed the last 18 pages of posts. According to Calvinism, God predestines the ones who are going to be the elect without reference to anything they deserve or don't deserve. (That's a fancy way of saying that he predestines them arbitrarily and you have obviously got the gist of this quite well.) These are all given the opportunity to repent because God decreed that they should. But all the rest God decreed should never have the opportunity to repent and so they are automatically condemned from the moment they are born.
The sole reason God causes all these people to be born and yet not be given the opportunity to repent is so that those few who have been predestined to salvation can see how lucky they were to have received God's mercy.
Actually, there is another related reason: it's so that Calvinists who have been truly elected can feel great about being the special chosen people, without having to have a bad conscience about the rest. A bit like in those films or documentaries you sometimes see where there are these incredibly rich people living right next door to incredibly poor people and these incredibly rich people never feel any conscience towards the incredibly poor people right on their doorstep. They watch them dying of hunger and thirst and in great pain and disease and somehow manage to believe that they deserve it and that it is quite a normal state of affairs. In the same way Calvinists don't need to feel any conscience about the poor blighters who are not going to be saved because they know that they are the chosen ones and there is nothing that can be done about it.
Calvinists have a phrase to describe this state of affairs: God's perfect righteousness.
Repentance is not an "opportunity" provided all men. Due to the inheritance of a totally corrupted sin nature from Adam, no man desires or wills to repent. All men are cursed with enmity against God, so it is their sinful nature to love and nurture their sins. Only those for whom the curse of enmity has been removed (Galatians 3:13) are freed to repent from the bondage to sin, death, and the devil!
Repentance is granted by God, to those He regenerates to new spiritual life by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit of Christ. (II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18)
IOW's, repentance issues forth from the Holy Spirit within justified sinners, and not from unsaved sinners, at all. Those not born again to new spiritual life, cannot and will not to repent.
Such is what the bible teaches, about which you seem to have no clue. You just invent things that sound good to your ears, but your opinions hold no scriptural truth at all.
Poor you . . .
Nang
"The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."
"Experience teaches us nothing; revelation teaches all we need to know."
“ Those who proclaim that the sovereignty of God determines what justice is, (do so) by observing what God actually does. Whatever God does is just.”
I think the best way to respond to this post is just to read through the whole thing as a holistic argument rather the way it is broken up between your responses here. It all works together to say that we must mutually trust God and acknowledge His rights as Creator without being His judge or trying to go to court for Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman
Your doctrine does claim that God elected those who are saved before salvation without regard to anything a particular person does or doesn't do, right?
Sort of, not really. While yes those ideas are conveyed, it is really rather that God foreordains by His own counsel. How active or passive that is merely left to trust in His hands rather than us trying to make that determination: "Who is man that you are mindful of Him... Does not the Potter..."
So for us, the answer is that God has this right regardless of what I (or even you) think. We are creation/created. He is the Maker and Owner with all rights thereof. If you agree, welcome to being a honorary Calvinist for the day. If not, are you seriously contemplating that He doesn't own the cattle on a thousand hills? Or that we, all clay, belong to Him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman
If so, then the preaching of the "gospel" as "You may have already won eternal life" should be obvious, even it isn't obvious who is elect and who is not.
The problem is this is your cosmic lottery misconception. It is neither random, chance, or earned. If you can't earn or buy it, how else would you get what is freely given, other than a giver deciding to give it to you?
If you want to slap that giver for not giving it to others when you accept it, isn't that looking a gift horse in the mouth? Furthermore, let us say, just for argument, that you have no idea why some people who seem the same to you, like your friend from high school, didn't come to Christ. Let's say that you only know why 'you' came to Him. Do you want to be judge over that decision? Whose decision is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman
But you preach as though everyone could be saved, in apparent ignorance to your own doctrine.
His prescience comes into the discussion so of course we are twice removed in our contentions. Regardless between both of us, neither of us knows, we are the same in our presentation. We rather disagree on what God knows and when He knows it. Again, this ties to just above where we'd be judging God for who comes to Him and who doesn't. I believe God able to force the entire world to Himself if He desired. How about you? And then, doesn't that put us close together on this where we could ask why He doesn't but rather trust instead of presuming to be His judge? There are difference between us, but not quite as stark as you seem to be trying to make them. Recognize where we agree, you can't scape-goat my position the entire way (you can but it is a cheap and uncritical way out).
Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman
So, what I've presented is a more concise representation of what the Calvinist gospel is.
Yes, but don't we both have a lot of agreement here? Don't you agree we belong to God and He can do as He likes? Don't we agree that He could bring those He wanted to Himself, and that even if you are correct concerning the extent of our freewill, He still chose the way we would come to Him and knowing who at least, likely would not? I mean, such already relegates some to salvation and some to perish, so we both agree He has a right to make this choice, correct?
You can have all kinds of disagreement here, no problem. I'm not trying to make you an honorary Calvinist really, I'm just trying to tell you we both bank on the Most exceptional attributes of our Precious God and Savior and trust Him.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Nang, I don't see that at all. He is stating what is obvious. It's not his fault that you believe God created man just to send him to hell except for the select few. Which of course, your part of.
This isn't the angle we look at it from. Remember the parable of the wedding feast? None would come (Israel/Judah) so the Father sends out to compell men to come. This carries a selective yet open idea. It isn't that any of us deserve it then, as Pres states below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePresbyteers
Everyone is equally guilty before God. There's not one single person among us ...who doesn't deserve eternal death.
The Elect are saved by God's sheer mercy alone. Our redemption ain't based on our being "Good People" or, even, 'better people' (vis-a-vis everyone else).
If God were to send all deserving sinners to Eternal Hell, nobody would be left.
The Lord can be arbitrary in salvation because there are no "Good People" who might then be treated unfairly.
"Therefore, just as sin
entered the world through
one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death
came to all men, because all
sinned"
(Romans 5:12Â NIV)
I think of it more as a rescue mission. When the Coast Guard has rescued individuals from shipping disasters, no rescuee is reprimanding them for those who were not saved and nobody is blaming other passengers for thanking the Coast Guard for choosing them out of the water.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. - Let's at least work at it?
*************************************
Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Repentance is not an "opportunity" provided all men.
I agree. It is only provided to a few.
Quote:
Due to the inheritance of a totally corrupted sin nature from Adam, no man desires or wills to repent.
Yes. You've said that before. That is no different to what I said. And this is all as decreed by God himself. The only point in laying the blame on Adam is to avoid acknowledging that God has been unjust. Furthermore, the idea that headship of the human race was vested in one man can only have been God's. It is not a natural idea. There isn't some natural law that says that because Adam sinned, so all men must also sin and/or bear the consequences.
Even if the headship concept were Biblical, it would still be God's responsibility. But the fact is that the headship concept is not Biblical. Gal 6:5, Ezek 18:20. And even Ex 20:5 cuts off the headship principle at 3 or 4 generations. Romans 5 does not support it either.
Quote:
All men are cursed with enmity against God, so it is their sinful nature to love and nurture their sins. Only those for whom the curse of enmity has been removed (Galatians 3:13) are freed to repent from the bondage to sin, death, and the devil!
A curse is an active thing. Or did you not read what I said? It is God who is cursing. He has power to curse and power not to curse. I'm not arguing over whether it is in their nature to sin. I'm arguing over the fact that they have no opportunity to be anything different.
Your theology is stuck because you can't escape from the fact that everything ultimately derives from God. You can say all you like about it being Adam's fault or it being a headship issue or the fact that man is totally depraved or that no one wants to be saved. But you can't escape from the logic that your theology imposes on it all.
Quote:
Such is what the bible teaches,
This has to be a joke.
Quote:
Poor you . . .
Nang
I would rather be poor and dignified.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Repentance is granted by God, to those He regenerates to new spiritual life by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit of Christ. (II Timothy 2:25; Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:18)
IOW's, repentance issues forth from the Holy Spirit within justified sinners, and not from unsaved sinners, at all. Those not born again to new spiritual life, cannot and will not to repent.
Yes, yes, you've said it all before. In passing let me say that the scriptures you cite do not support you. Though I can hardly expect you to see sense in that, given past experience. But just to play along with your logic a little and see where it leads -
In one sentence you say
Quote:
Repentance is granted by God, to those He regenerates to new spiritual life
but in the next sentence you say
Quote:
Those not born again to new spiritual life, cannot and will not to repent.
What you mean is that they cannot or will not repent unless moved by God???
So it is not absolutely true that they cannot or will not repent. It is still possible for them to repent if the spirit moves them to. Do you agree with this?
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by themuzicman Your doctrine does claim that God elected those who are saved before salvation without regard to anything a particular person does or doesn't do, right?
to which Lon responded
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
Sort of, not really. While yes those ideas are conveyed, it is really rather that God foreordains by His own counsel. How active or passive that is merely left to trust in His hands rather than us trying to make that determination:
I'd just like to say that is perhaps the first time I have ever known a Calvinist to actually acknowledge the problem.
Perhaps you can also understand, Lon, why 'How active or passive that is merely left to trust in His hands rather than us trying to make that determination' is unsatisfactory to people who were taught that Jesus is the answer and that 'we have the mind of God'.
Quote:
The problem is this is your cosmic lottery misconception. It is neither random, chance, or earned. If you can't earn or buy it, how else would you get what is freely given, other than a giver deciding to give it to you?
If you want to slap that giver for not giving it to others when you accept it, isn't that looking a gift horse in the mouth? Furthermore, let us say, just for argument, that you have no idea why some people who seem the same to you, like your friend from high school, didn't come to Christ. Let's say that you only know why 'you' came to Him. Do you want to be judge over that decision? Whose decision is it?
It always sounds acceptable at first sight when you get given something for nothing. That is why there are still so many Calvinists around. The problem is that we were told that God called us according to purpose (Romans 8) and there doesn't seem to be much purpose in predestining some people arbitrarily and independently of anything they do or don't do. Calvin said that we were not allowed to know the basis of this 'secret election' but surely you would not blame us for thinking this is just a great big cover-up.
Openness theology however, offers a simple and direct explanation of the purpose. God's purpose in calling us was that we should live in holiness and righteousness like Christ and have the benefit of the transforming Spirit. He offers it to all who believe and desires that all men be saved. This is a singular, clean and coherent purpose, fully worthy of our great and holy God, and quite unlike any Calvinistic explanation that only offers salvation to some and then doesn't allow us to know why. It's methodology is much more reminiscent of the deeds of darkness where people shy away from the light because they don't want their works to be seen for what they are. That's what a cover up is.
Total Misanthropy. Uncertain salvation. Luck of the draw. Irresistible damnation. Persecution of the saints.
Come on Muz!
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